His combat speed is fodder. Normal humans were perceiving TTGL and Spiral fight just fine from earth.
"Human spirit amp" was not enough a lot of times, they started getting outside energy towards the end of the series a lot like energy from the spiral abyss to evolve and in case of STTGL absorbing the big bang via Lordgenome sacrificing himself.
Sorry, but have you taken into account:
1. The apparent massivity of the object proportional to time. We are speaking of Bajillion light years sized mech moving relative in our sky at real time, use any kind of celestial geometry and it would be absolute nuts.
2. Earth is not even in the same space-time/dimension yet are connected via anime bullshit, if you use any kind of reference and try to apply apparent distance to the observer both STTGL and AS should be blueshifted into bullshit (but ofc, they're not because because blueshift is for STL yet somehow their light are being casted at FTL).
Their light even reaching earth in real time is bullcrap.
If you try to apply any meaningful time term for light reaching Earth the apparent size of STTLG/AS is small. Ridiculously so. Yet it's clear that they're perceiving all of it in real time. It would be disingenuous to assume their speed as seen by an observer of Earth to be of any significant information because everything would break down into illogic by taking that data into account, the math wouldn't math.
Not like it matters, coz Xenoku is consistently even more fodder than that.
Learn to read before insulting people over your own lack of reading comprehension, this is talking about how light would take so long to travel the distance between them due to scale so they wouldn't be visible for 10000s of years. This doesn't imply their movements are slowed down at all. 10 000s of years is not shorter than seconds/minutes so if you interpret this in another way than "light would take long to reach" it only makes them waaay slower than normal humans in terms of combat/reaction speed.
Lmao. STTGL and AS at this point are millions of light years in size. This interview clearly states that the reason why people on earth can see them in real time is because its a space-time distortion, so their kinda seeing a projection or "hologram" of the fight. Them being at such an astronomical size would make them ridiculously fast, but Simon has the feat of flying across the multiverse labyrinth and "crushing" the universes to save the memebers of team dai-gurren, meaning hes already stupidly MFTL off of that alone if not just infinite speed straight up because the multiverse is infinite and he had to manually give them the same power he currently did, which was fusing every possible counterpart they had across the past, present, and future.
This has nothing to do with that attack tho. And it has been charging for a while now and they never comment on it getting higher later either. They were also all scared of a reading that high, posting something unrelated from an outside source doesn't change the meaning of the scene.
Them never commenting on it means nothing, And the fact that you want to throw away this statement from the guidebook for some reason shows me that you just want to downplay the verse considering the head writer of GL wrote these guidebooks and novels, and also stated that everything is canon because "the story of Gurren Lagann is the story of a multiverse". The truth of the matter is that Simon absorbed the infinite multiverse, and absorbed all of his possible past, present, and future versions into himself. And them commenting on the charge up of the attack yet again has nothing to do with the Anti spiral personally fueling the attack with his own power after its already been launched.
@heykorby: Lmao. STTGL and AS at this point are millions of light years in size. This interview clearly states that the reason why people on earth can see them in real time is because its a space-time distortion, so their kinda seeing a projection or "hologram" of the fight.
I actually like that they address how normal people can see them. Many series do not do that, so that's a nice change of pace.
@seventhmoon: You're not understanding my point. Destroying a 3D structure specifically will not affect a higher dimensional universe because 3D energy cannot interact with extra dimensional space. Superspace would be inaccessible to energy or any phenomenon of 3 dimensional nature. Lower dimensional planes can be embedded in higher dimensional ones, like a 2D slice being embedded in a 3D volume. But that still doesn't mean things bound to said plane can interact with the extra dimensional space
Gurren Laggan mentions membranes, they follow brane cosmology, and membrane can be described as dimensional planes embedded in higher dimensional space. A lower dimensional brane can be destroyed and the rest of the 11D bulk would be unaffected, because it's infinitely flat in comparison
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I do think you may be confused. The entire cosmology isn't just an 11D universe. There are multiverses of different dimensional natures that exist inside the entire 11D structure, but I know what you're trying to get at. You can't remove 3 dimensions of space from an 11D if the structure targeted is 11D, but if the space destroyed is 3D in nature, and exists inside an 11D space then the structure destroyed is not 11D, and nothing is contradicted
@lilacplasmabeam: @estrelladeleonn:thats not how spiral power work it evolves but only gets stronger he got stronge enough to manipulate reality and the 10th dimension
What you listed here is above anything in DB as a composite, but ok
however he never was equal to the antispiral the antispiral fought him on equal terms he's best attack was his big bang attack
Downplaying tactics when u defend Fodder Ball? Cute.
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Look at them multiverse busters bro. Anyways, Simon absorbed a multiverse, keep up.
which is equated to the power of a universe this fight is a lot closer than you think
Simon steps on Goku like the ant he is, I wouldn't say it's particularly close.
in terms of resistances goku fought the grand kai of time who can freely destroy and create multiversal timeslines and that was a far weaker zeno goku
This isn't fanfiction net. No one in DB ever did that, but nice attempt.
@jermainekoloch: Destroying a 3D structure specifically will not affect a higher dimensional structure because 3D energy cannot interact with extra dimensional space
I just explained why higher-dimensional structures are contingent upon lower-dimensional ones, as the latter is built off the former.
Superspace would be inaccessible to energy or any phenomenon of 3 dimensional nature
Incorrect, because geometric spatial dimensions are just about adding more directions/vectors. Energy is scalar, meaning it has no vectors and thus doesn't care about such things:
Of course, Goku's energy projection has vectors, but aiming isn't a problem here, as he can attack STTGL on a 3-D level and that'd harm STTGL, as he is made up of lower dimensions by necessity.
Not saying Goku has the power to harm STTGL, but dimensions aren't much of a factor here.
A lower dimensional brane can be destroyed and the rest of the 11D bulk would be unaffected
The video you cite backs up my arguments, not yours, as it describes spatial dimensions in the exact same way I did, starting at 0:40.
I just explained why higher-dimensional structures are contingent upon lower-dimensional ones, as the latter is built off the former.
They aren't dependent if the lower ones are 3D structures by themselves. You are correct that you can't remove 3D from 11D if everything is 11D, but that's not the case here. Everything is our universe is 3D with the addition of time. Nothing is lower dimensional, unlike some membranes in GL. Lower dimensional objects would be infinitely flat in comparison if they have they're own set of physical dimensions, which by definition they would, which is why they are called lower dimensional objects.
Incorrect, because geometric spatial dimensions are just about adding more directions/vectors. Energy is scalar, meaning it has no vectors and thus doesn't care about such things:
3D vector ≠ 11D vector. Dimensions of the vector space must be specified
Adding more vectors and directions alone doesn't make the vectors or the structures higher dimensional. Energy is scalar but it's not a dimensionaless quantity usually. Matter and Energy are 2 sides of the same coin. Energy as a magnitude alone is scalar yes, energy with a direction and force is not scalar.
Look at what else it says is scalar, length, area. Those things usually aren't dimensionless, so whats the point ? Physcal pressure also relies on dimensions. I think physical scalars and pure number scalars are being mixed up here perhaps ?
The video you cite backs up my arguments, not yours, as it describes spatial dimensions in the exact same way I did, starting at 0:40.
They explained membranes existing in a 11D bulk. That supports my point. Such membranes have their own physical dimensions. Spaces can be embedded inside of superspace
@jermainekoloch: They aren't dependent if they are 3D structures by themselves. You are correct that you can't remove 3D from 11D if everything is 11D, but that's not the case here. Everything is our universe is 3D with the addition of time. Nothing is lower dimensional, unlike some membranes in GL. Lower dimensional objects would be infinitely flat in comparison if they have they're own set of physical dimensions. A 2D structure by itself would not to able to affect you or I, even if they pass right through us, because it's not 3D.
Dimensions cannot exist independent of lower ones that comprise them. We can't physically interact with only 2-D things, but they exist in some capacity simply due to the fact that the third dimension exists.
3D vector ≠ 11D vector. Dimensions of the vector space must be specified
This isn't a counter to my argument. It doesn't matter how many higher dimensions there are. It's all just adding more directions. Directions that are contingent upon the lesser dimensions.
Energy is scalar but it's not a dimensionaless quantity usually.Matter and Energy are 2 sides of the same coin. Energy as a magnitude alone is scalar yes, energy with a direction and force is not scalar.
I'm aware energy projected falls under vectors, as I pointed out with Goku's energy projection having vectors. My main point about energy in its default state not caring about higher dimensions is that higher dimensions don't have some superior form of energy, nor more of it. It doesn't grant you more power. That's all.
They explained membranes existing in a 11D bulk. That supports my point. Such membranes have their own physical dimensions. Spaces can be embedded inside of superspace
Being "their own" dimension doesn't mean anything. The third dimension is its "own" dimension, but it's still comprised of lesser ones. If higher dimensions aren't extensions of lower ones, then we aren't talking about geometric dimensions at all anymore, as they are contingent on lower dimensions by pure necessity.
My point is that being higher-dimensional does not grant a power level. It doesn't "bypass durability" either. And I don't see why Goku can't just hit STTGL on a 3-D level. The fact others can see them already tells us they exist on some 3-D level as well.
Furthermore, if you're really arguing that their higher-dimensional status isn't comprised of lower dimensions, then how are they targeting the lower dimensions to attack Goku in the first place?
If STTGL is really powerful, then its dimensionality should be irrelevant compared to its more substantial traits and capabilities, which I think you should focus on instead.
Dimensions cannot exist independent of lower ones that comprise them. We can't physically interact with only 2-D things, but they exist in some capacity simply due to the fact that the third dimension exists.
You're confused
Lower dimensional universes can exist inside of a higher dimensional structures, because the lower space doesn't extend into superspace and isn't 11D. Its a space which has its own dimensionality, but it's lower so it's inside of the bulk. Spaces can be embedded in spaces mathmatically. They can be distinct spaces that coexist. Destroying a 3D universe inside a superspace doesn't remove the entire 3rd dimension of reality because the membrane has it's own boundries. I think that's whats stumping you up. Other membranes can be 3D and still exist independently of the destroyed plane existing in a juxtaposition.
Also can you cite your source that even removing a spatial dimension mathmatically destroys all of reality ? Sounds like something you made up. I'm not arguing against it because that's not my stance, but I just want to know
This isn't a counter to my argument. It doesn't matter how many higher dimensions there are. It's all just adding more directions. Directions that are contingent upon the lesser dimensions.
The dimensions the direction takes place needs to be specified. It is absolutely a counter argument. You said adding vectors and directions = higher dimension. This is false. Adding directions doesn't increase dimensions, because you can add more directions without increasing the dimensions, same with vectors Increase of dimensions means adding more freedom to a vector space. The vector itself can only move in the dimensionality of the space no matter how many vectors you add. They are not the same.
I'm aware energy projected falls under vectors, as I pointed out with Goku's energy projection having vectors. My main point about energy in its default state not caring about higher dimensions is that higher dimensions don't have some superior form of energy, nor more of it. It doesn't grant you more power. That's all.
Energy has dimensions. Energy needs to be higher dimensional in nature to affect higher dimensions. Scalar Quantities that are physical posses dimensions. You're going to argue length and area don't care about dimensions ? because thats what your scan indicates. Dimensionality is not ap related, we know.
Being "their own" dimension doesn't mean anything. The third dimension is its "own" dimension, but it's still comprised of lesser ones. If higher dimensions aren't extensions of lower ones, then we aren't talking about geometric dimensions at all anymore, as they are contingent on lower dimensions by pure necessity.
False equivalence. The 3rd dimension in reality is not it's own space or it's own structure. It's not its own space, it's just a measurement of space. Membranes are described as such, which is why actions that occur inside of lower dimensional membranes do not affect the entire bulk. Such embedded spacetimes can be mathmatically described, that's what Brane Cosmology is.
My point is that being higher-dimensional does not grant a power level. It doesn't "bypass durability" either. And I don't see why Goku can't just hit STTGL on a 3-D level. The fact others can see them already tells us they exist on some 3-D level as well.
How would a sword 2D in nature damage you if it only attacks in 2 dimensions and it's attack has 0 thickness in comparison to you ? It wouldn't. It wouldn't be able to interact with you. There are multiple sources I can provide that lower dimensional objects cannot influence with higher dimensions. This is basic stuff. STTGL could destroy Gokus reality while being unaffected, or attack him in the past present and future.
@jermainekoloch: Lower dimensional universes can exist inside of a higher dimensional structures, because the lower space doesn't extend into superspace and isn't 11D.
It doesn't matter that lower dimensions cannot access higher ones. That doesn't change the fact that higher ones are still built off and contingent upon lower ones.
Destroying a 3D universe inside a superspace doesn't remove the entire 3rd dimension of reality because the membrane has it's own boundries.
Yes? I'm aware that destroying a 3-D universe =/= destroying the entirety of the third dimension. That doesn't disprove the fact that the higher dimensions are still contingent upon the lower ones, and that the obliteration of the third dimension in its entirety will collapse the higher dimensions.
Now can Goku do that? No idea. Doubt it. He'd probably die in the process even if he could. I'm not arguing for Goku. I'm arguing against arguments. That's it. If someone brings up arguments for Goku that I disagree with, like him having infinite power, I'll go after those too.
Also can you cite your source that even removing a spatial dimension mathmatically destroys all of reality
Destroying the third dimension in its entirety will collapse any higher dimension. Destroying the third dimension in a certain universe could also collapse the higher dimension in that universe potentially, but not in the rest of reality.
If you're asking me to cite how higher dimensions would collapse if lower ones are destroyed, I already cited that and so did you unintentionally, as I've pointed out, but I will repeat:
Higher geometric spatial dimensions are built off the foundation of lower dimensions and are thus contingent upon them. The fourth dimension is contingent upon the third as its foundation, which is contingent upon the second for the same reason, etc. Remove the length and width of the lower dimensions. Now how can the third dimension exist when it is composed of such things?
You can't. It's contingent on those properties, as they serve as the foundation upon which its own exclusive property emerges. Apples cannot grow without trees.
The third dimension is made up of length, width, and height. If length and width are gone, how is there height? There is no lesser measurements to scale height. If the foundational requirements for volume/depth don't exist or are destroyed, how can anything built off them still be?
Adding directions doesn't increase dimensions, because you can add more directions without increasing the dimensions, same with vectors Increase of dimensions means adding more freedom to a vector space. The vector itself can only move in the dimensionality of the space no matter how many vectors you add. They are not the same.
Your own video literally talks about higher dimensions being about adding more angles/directions.
Energy has dimensions. Energy needs to be higher dimensional in nature to affect higher dimensions. Scalar Quantities that are physical posses dimensions.
They exist within dimensions/the physical space of reality, but they don't inherently have vectors.
I don't know why we're going over this though. You agree dimensionality doesn't relate to power, and we agree Goku's energy projection has vectors regardless. Are only disagreement is how higher dimensions are contingent on lower ones, and how a higher-dimensional person can be harmed by being attacked on a lower-dimensional level, so let's focus on those now.
The 3rd dimension in reality is not it's own space or it's own structure. It's not its own space, it's just a measurement of space.v
Sure, but those measurements are a blueprint for how dimensions work. If you destroy the entirety of that space, the rest contingent upon those measurements collapse.
Again, can Goku do this? No idea. If he can, I doubt he'd survive such a thing regardless.
How would a sword 2D in nature damage you if it only attacks in 2 dimensions and it's attack has 0 thickness in comparison to you ?
For the same reason a fictional character the size of a human could beat up Godzilla potentially: Because size isn't related to power necessarily in the alternative physics of fiction.
It wouldn't. It wouldn't be able to interact with you. There are multiple sources I can provide that lower dimensional objects cannot influence with higher dimensions.
You cannot directly influence the third dimension directly, but you can indirectly logically speaking.
And if you want to go that route, need I mention that we as humans cannot actually interact physically with the second dimension? We can't even perceive solely two dimensions normally.
Furthermore, take note of this:
If the inhabitants of the 2-D universe apply a force to the circle then they apply a force to the ball, since the circle is the ball. So the circle/ball will accelerate in both universes. If the ball is on the edge of a 3-D pit and slides or rolls down into the pit, it will leave the 2-D universe and they will see the circle's diameter shrink quickly to zero and disappear. (Since their universe is a plane slicing through the sphere, they will always see a circle no matter the shape of the pit.)
It is clear from the above statements that a lower dimensional entity won't have complete reach in its immediate higher dimension.
The second dimension obviously doesn't have "complete" reach in a higher dimension, but it still can affect it in a limited capacity, as mentioned in the first quote.
Where's Gokus Ap advantage
No idea bro. Wasn't arguing in favor of Goku in this fight. I was speaking hypothetically to illustrate my point.
@seventhmoon: no one is even arguing about entire spatial dimensions being destroyed. The person i replied to was referring to the universe inside of the higher dimensions being destroyed, and just universes destruction wouldn't collapse reality
Also energy has only 3 dimensions in DB, and it doesn't matter, Simon in GL has the feats, he has universal/multiversal feats, can also can interact with 3D beings. You said STTGL lacked the ap to harm him, read the comments over
@jermainekoloch: no one is even arguing about entire spatial dimensions being destroyed.
Never said they did? You kept using high-dimensional arguments for STTGL though and said he bypasses Goku's durability.
You said STTGL lacked the ap to harm him, read the comments over
No I didn't. I said higher dimensions isn't an argument for higher AP, meaning that one could potentially lack the AP to harm Goku, despite being higher-dimensional. Never said that's actually the case thugh.
@seventhmoon: Because Goku can't interact with him, and STTGL has the ap to kill/one shot so it's irrelevant, his size alone means he can just step on Goku
@jermainekoloch: no goku especially zeno goku is way to overpowered he wont get oneshot and goku can interact with him his enteracted with space before shattering it with just a power up he has also survived in a void with out space/time he not to mention fighting infinite zamasu who became several time lines/ multiverse albeit thats not xeno goku
@jermainekoloch: agaiin Goku can interact with higer beings dimensionality in terms of db doesnt matter goku can interact with higher dimensional beings especially when other people could still interact with simon
and simon could interact with antispiral who is slightly inferior if not equal to to sttgl
@jermainekoloch: dimensionality isnt a big thing in db but as i have stated he can still interact with multiversal beings like fighting the actual embodiment of the multiverse infinte zamasu who became the past the present and the future and controlled universal law casuality time etc
@seventhmoon: he tried but it had no effect of either goku or vegeta so it was a stalemate since they couldnt erase him and he couldnt kill them and he did become all of time he was literally appearing in the past
His combat speed is fodder. Normal humans were perceiving TTGL and Spiral fight just fine from earth.
"Human spirit amp" was not enough a lot of times, they started getting outside energy towards the end of the series a lot like energy from the spiral abyss to evolve and in case of STTGL absorbing the big bang via Lordgenome sacrificing himself.
Sorry, but have you taken into account:
1. The apparent massivity of the object proportional to time. We are speaking of Bajillion light years sized mech moving relative in our sky at real time, use any kind of celestial geometry and it would be absolute nuts.
2. Earth is not even in the same space-time/dimension yet are connected via anime bulls🟥🟥t, if you use any kind of reference and try to apply apparent distance to the observer both STTGL and AS should be blueshifted into bulls🟥🟥t (but ofc, they're not because because blueshift is for STL yet somehow their light are being casted at FTL).
Their light even reaching earth in real time is bullcrap.
If you try to apply any meaningful time term for light reaching Earth the apparent size of STTLG/AS is small. Ridiculously so. Yet it's clear that they're perceiving all of it in real time. It would be disingenuous to assume their speed as seen by an observer of Earth to be of any significant information because everything would break down into illogic by taking that data into account, the math wouldn't math.
Not like it matters, coz Xenoku is consistently even more fodder than that.
Their movement speed is MFTL, their combat/reaction speed is not better than microseconds or anything however and as bad as Xeno Goku is, i don't think his reactions are only human level.
Learn to read before insulting people over your own lack of reading comprehension, this is talking about how light would take so long to travel the distance between them due to scale so they wouldn't be visible for 10000s of years. This doesn't imply their movements are slowed down at all. 10 000s of years is not shorter than seconds/minutes so if you interpret this in another way than "light would take long to reach" it only makes them waaay slower than normal humans in terms of combat/reaction speed.
Lmao. STTGL and AS at this point are millions of light years in size. This interview clearly states that the reason why people on earth can see them in real time is because its a space-time distortion, so their kinda seeing a projection or "hologram" of the fight. Them being at such an astronomical size would make them ridiculously fast, but Simon has the feat of flying across the multiverse labyrinth and "crushing" the universes to save the memebers of team dai-gurren, meaning hes already stupidly MFTL off of that alone if not just infinite speed straight up because the multiverse is infinite and he had to manually give them the same power he currently did, which was fusing every possible counterpart they had across the past, present, and future.
This has nothing to do with that attack tho. And it has been charging for a while now and they never comment on it getting higher later either. They were also all scared of a reading that high, posting something unrelated from an outside source doesn't change the meaning of the scene.
Them never commenting on it means nothing, And the fact that you want to throw away this statement from the guidebook for some reason shows me that you just want to downplay the verse considering the head writer of GL wrote these guidebooks and novels, and also stated that everything is canon because "the story of Gurren Lagann is the story of a multiverse". The truth of the matter is that Simon absorbed the infinite multiverse, and absorbed all of his possible past, present, and future versions into himself. And them commenting on the charge up of the attack yet again has nothing to do with the Anti spiral personally fueling the attack with his own power after its already been launched.
I know they have good movement speed, never said anything otherwise. Infinite is nonsense though and i am questioning their combat/reaction speed which would make them blitz someone. Also based on how their sizes compare to the galaxy they are standing on, it is more likely they are 10000s of light years in size and not millions as the writer agreed per your quote:
Imaishi: Yes, that's right. What do you think about being able to see it because it's so big? When I asked him about it, he said no. What's more, you're talking about where the galaxy is.
Otsuka: It would take tens of thousands of years to see them.
Labyrinth absorbing is another scene, has nothing to do with the big bang scene. Anti spiral has been fueling it for a while by the time they measured it, there is no chance he randomly upped his rate of fueling it by orders of magnitude after wasting time doing it on low output. Their comment also matters as their word is crearly the intended power level of the attack.
How can Goku win? Time traveling missiles would hit him in the past and kill him when he was offguard even if you think Xeno Goku is above universal (i have yet to see any feat on that level for the guy though).
This is not universal, breaking space is unquantifiable and the scale they did is not even that large, the ice country(?) around was unaffected by this.
At least an improvement over just a claim with no scan.
@nwname: this is what the databook says about this
breaking the boundaries of a universe is universal plus
Not sure if this pic is legit but regardless breaking boundaries is not "universal plus", its just a local effect way smaller in scale than the entire universe. Also again this is not the version of the character in this thread.
@nwname: this is what the databook says about this
breaking the boundaries of a universe is universal plus
I looked it up and it doesn't say they shattered reality, only the boundaries of the universe that made them fall into that unknown dimension:
Energy containing the might of a different dimension collides between the two. A flash of light surges as a silent explosion expanded.
The next instant, Gogeta and Broly found themselves within a dimension of swirling strange lights. The boundary of the dimension could not withstand the energy released by them and got torn apart.
As for that strange dimension, it actually doesn't say the reality they were in crumbles, it said the light of it was:
As Broly dodges the attack, he makes his way towards Gogeta. After leaving the opposing shock wave, Gogeta rushes towards Broly as well. The instant their punches collided, a chance is once again triggered within the dimension. As the light of the dimension crumbles away, the scenery of the original world returns. Broly and Gogeta land on the ground, keeping at a distance to each other. Unable to fully withstand the momentum of the landing, Broly slips along the ground until he finally stops. Although he had assumed somewhat of a stance, he was breathing heavily.
His combat speed is fodder. Normal humans were perceiving TTGL and Spiral fight just fine from earth.
"Human spirit amp" was not enough a lot of times, they started getting outside energy towards the end of the series a lot like energy from the spiral abyss to evolve and in case of STTGL absorbing the big bang via Lordgenome sacrificing himself.
Sorry, but have you taken into account:
1. The apparent massivity of the object proportional to time. We are speaking of Bajillion light years sized mech moving relative in our sky at real time, use any kind of celestial geometry and it would be absolute nuts.
2. Earth is not even in the same space-time/dimension yet are connected via anime bulls🟥🟥t, if you use any kind of reference and try to apply apparent distance to the observer both STTGL and AS should be blueshifted into bulls🟥🟥t (but ofc, they're not because because blueshift is for STL yet somehow their light are being casted at FTL).
Their light even reaching earth in real time is bullcrap.
If you try to apply any meaningful time term for light reaching Earth the apparent size of STTLG/AS is small. Ridiculously so. Yet it's clear that they're perceiving all of it in real time. It would be disingenuous to assume their speed as seen by an observer of Earth to be of any significant information because everything would break down into illogic by taking that data into account, the math wouldn't math.
Not like it matters, coz Xenoku is consistently even more fodder than that.
Their movement speed is MFTL, their combat/reaction speed is not better than microseconds or anything however and as bad as Xeno Goku is, i don't think his reactions are only human level.
Learn to read before insulting people over your own lack of reading comprehension, this is talking about how light would take so long to travel the distance between them due to scale so they wouldn't be visible for 10000s of years. This doesn't imply their movements are slowed down at all. 10 000s of years is not shorter than seconds/minutes so if you interpret this in another way than "light would take long to reach" it only makes them waaay slower than normal humans in terms of combat/reaction speed.
Lmao. STTGL and AS at this point are millions of light years in size. This interview clearly states that the reason why people on earth can see them in real time is because its a space-time distortion, so their kinda seeing a projection or "hologram" of the fight. Them being at such an astronomical size would make them ridiculously fast, but Simon has the feat of flying across the multiverse labyrinth and "crushing" the universes to save the memebers of team dai-gurren, meaning hes already stupidly MFTL off of that alone if not just infinite speed straight up because the multiverse is infinite and he had to manually give them the same power he currently did, which was fusing every possible counterpart they had across the past, present, and future.
This has nothing to do with that attack tho. And it has been charging for a while now and they never comment on it getting higher later either. They were also all scared of a reading that high, posting something unrelated from an outside source doesn't change the meaning of the scene.
Them never commenting on it means nothing, And the fact that you want to throw away this statement from the guidebook for some reason shows me that you just want to downplay the verse considering the head writer of GL wrote these guidebooks and novels, and also stated that everything is canon because "the story of Gurren Lagann is the story of a multiverse". The truth of the matter is that Simon absorbed the infinite multiverse, and absorbed all of his possible past, present, and future versions into himself. And them commenting on the charge up of the attack yet again has nothing to do with the Anti spiral personally fueling the attack with his own power after its already been launched.
I know they have good movement speed, never said anything otherwise. Infinite is nonsense though and i am questioning their combat/reaction speed which would make them blitz someone. Also based on how their sizes compare to the galaxy they are standing on, it is more likely they are 10000s of light years in size and not millions as the writer agreed per your quote:
Imaishi: Yes, that's right. What do you think about being able to see it because it's so big? When I asked him about it, he said no. What's more, you're talking about where the galaxy is.
Otsuka: It would take tens of thousands of years to see them.
Labyrinth absorbing is another scene, has nothing to do with the big bang scene. Anti spiral has been fueling it for a while by the time they measured it, there is no chance he randomly upped his rate of fueling it by orders of magnitude after wasting time doing it on low output. Their comment also matters as their word is crearly the intended power level of the attack.
How can Goku win? Time traveling missiles would hit him in the past and kill him when he was offguard even if you think Xeno Goku is above universal (i have yet to see any feat on that level for the guy though).
Did you jump into this without reading DBH or watching the anime? Or playing any of the many games Xeno Goku is in? Not attacking you I’m just curious
This is not universal, breaking space is unquantifiable and the scale they did is not even that large, the ice country(?) around was unaffected by this.
Late Toriyama himself confirmed that it was on a universal scale:
Saying that dimension was not large because another, entirely separate dimension was not affected by its destruction, does not make much sense to me tbh. As for breaking space being unquantifiable, I think Dr Kaku disagrees:
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I think it is pretty common knowledge that breaking space is much harder than breaking matter inside of it as well, and Gogeta and Broly shattered it all, matter and space alike. So feat seems pretty clear-cut to me. Not that I think that this feat means means anything to DBH, which has no need for it in any case, just wanted to say this.
Xeno Goku wins due to somehow surpassing limitlessness of his opponent and out evolves STTGL by instinct and then beating him with the power of being the shonen father of over the top anime.
There are things that people miss out on Xeno Goku
He's Acausal (Types 1 and 4) And can resists hax that bypass said Acausality (Time Power)
He's resisted Time Power, a conceptual Energy That comes from TokiToki himself, the Embodiment of Time, Law, and Order itself and is a being responsible for the existence of all dimensions in the DBH Multiverse. Time itself also precedes concepts likeEvil. Due to the Time Scrolls (Which are manifestations of Time Power itself) is explained by Sealas that they are responsible for Evil existing. To further back this up, Altering or destroying the time scrolls directly affect the timelines they record. This is even more potent if we include that Time scrolls record underlying information, text, plot, and film. Time Power can also affect demons who are disconnected from the flow of time and exist outside History's time Axes and on top of all of that, they come from a history that's completely nonexistent.
So in turn.
Tokitoki > Time Power/Time > Data and Information/Text => Law and Order/Evil > Justice and Order (I forgot Infinite Zamasu since he classifies as a Type 3 Concept)
Xeno Goku can also use Time Power via the Keysword or Summons (As Chronoa directly amped both Xeno and CC Goku with Time Power against Fu.)
"But STTGL has the stat advantage!"
Means nothing when Xeno Goku Can summon Super Shenron, who can grant High-Godly levels of Immortality with Wishes (Same way he did to Zamasu)
Take this as you will, have a good day to you all. I didn't dive too much into cosmology. I spent enough time trying to find all the scans for above (I'm on a new computer.)
There are things that people miss out on Xeno Goku
He's Acausal (Types 1 and 4) And can resists hax that bypass said Acausality (Time Power)
He's resisted Time Power, a conceptual Energy That comes from TokiToki himself, the Embodiment of Time, Law, and Order itself and is a being responsible for the existence of all dimensions in the DBH Multiverse. Time itself also precedes concepts likeEvil. Due to the Time Scrolls (Which are manifestations of Time Power itself) is explained by Sealas that they are responsible for Evil existing. To further back this up, Altering or destroying the time scrolls directly affect the timelines they record. This is even more potent if we include that Time scrolls record underlying information, text, plot, and film. Time Power can also affect demons who are disconnected from the flow of time and exist outside History's time Axes and on top of all of that, they come from a history that's completely nonexistent.
So in turn.
Tokitoki > Time Power/Time > Data and Information => Law and Order/Evil > Justice and Order (I forgot Infinite Zamasu since he classifies as a Type 3 Concept)
Xeno Goku can also use Time Power via the Keysword or Summons (As Chronoa directly amped both Xeno and CC Goku with Time Power against Fu.)
"But STTGL has the stat advantage!"
Means nothing when Xeno Goku Can summon Super Shenron, who can grant High-Godly levels of Immortality with Wishes (Same way he did to Zamasu)
Take this as you will, have a good day to you all. I didn't dive too much into cosmology. I spent enough time trying to find all the scans for above (I'm on a new computer.)
This is not universal, breaking space is unquantifiable and the scale they did is not even that large, the ice country(?) around was unaffected by this.
Late Toriyama himself confirmed that it was on a universal scale:
Saying that dimension was not large because another, entirely separate dimension was not affected by its destruction, does not make much sense to me tbh. As for breaking space being unquantifiable, I think Dr Kaku disagrees:
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I think it is pretty common knowledge that breaking space is much harder than breaking matter inside of it as well, and Gogeta and Broly shattered it all, matter and space alike. So feat seems pretty clear-cut to me. Not that I think that this feat means means anything to DBH, which has no need for it in any case, just wanted to say this.
That statement makes no sense though, Heroes power levels aren't dozens of orders of magnitude below Broly movie ones. Also early scrpit before the movie came out doesn't matter much.
No one said the dimension was small, just the space they shattered was small and didn't even cover the country when they did it on Earth.
Broly and Gogeta are obviously not operating on negative power levels so the sci-fi method is not applicable at all.
Did you jump into this without reading DBH or watching the anime? Or playing any of the many games Xeno Goku is in? Not attacking you I’m just curious
Just read one of the mangas and checked some of the supposedly impressive feats people talked about and they all seemed lackluster before. Looking at it more there are definitely universal+ feats in the series.
That statement makes no sense though, Heroes power levels aren't dozens of orders of magnitude below Broly movie ones. Also early scrpit before the movie came out doesn't matter much.
True they are not, but he was talking about the visual scale of the fight. After all, Golden Frieza and SSB Goku were stronger than BoG Goku and suppressed Beerus, but the fight was on a much lower scale visually. He was saying that in Broly, two were affecting things on a universal scale. And script was not a point here, point was Toryiama saying that Super Hero is meant to be change from the universal scales fights in Broly and will instead be more local.
No one said the dimension was small, just the space they shattered was small and didn't even cover the country when they did it on Earth.
Well, that does not make sense because they shattered that dimension itself, per novel, and after that, said dimension was destroyed and they were back in the main universe. Just because they were back in the country after, does not mean the separate dimension they destroyed before, did not cover that country.
Broly and Gogeta are obviously not operating on negative power levels so the sci-fi method is not applicable at all.
True, but Kaku said that ultra-powerful particle beams can make hole in space due to the power of their collision, and that negative matter would just be used to stabilize it, did he not?
The reason STTGL wins is due to the fact it's got passive and active probability manipulation across past, present and future, all of that fueled by Simon himself, so the speed at which STTGL operates, is all generated by Simon's Spiral Power.
In short, if Goku actually fights Simon himself, the latter will have the same strenght, agility and speed of the mecha, and by the end of his fight against Anti Spiral, he literally overpowered him even though Anti Spiral annihilated STTGL. And kept up with him in a physical confrontation, reacted to his blows, etc.
Simon with some extra material literally absorbed the very "author", or creator of his world, so he can literally overcome disgusting gaps of powers through Spiral Power, to the point the Simon he absorbed created his world and held superiority over it like a god.
Yet Anti Spiral was superior and Simon still surpassed him. So, absorption on waaaay above multiversal scale, that overcomes such colossal differences of existence/power, passive probability manipulation that's both offensive and defensive, the capability to change fate on a multiversal scale through Spiral Power and literally superior strenght if we get into a cosmology comparison.
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