@heykorby: yeah Super tengen topa gurren laggan is pretty busted but so is xeno goku should be a close fight both can be easily universal plus to multiveersal and both are very haxxed goku with key sword which nullifies all attacks and sttgl with his casuality manip missiles and his reality manip
@dogsrus: The first thing SGGL did was reach out its hand and close it. It's fingertips drilled through space, shattered it, and teleported its enemy into its hand.
Later, it shot lasers in every direction through portals leading to a mathematical paradox. It literally shot things that didn't exist right in the math and killed them.
@thelocust619: yea but that isnt really measurable in power its more hax and if you remember correctly the strongest attacks antispiral used was the big bang or something that was described as having as much energy which the form before super tengen topa gurren laggan couldnt handle and he needed the spiral kings lagann to save him from the blast however he was significantly weaker then both characters can be lowballed to universal or highballed to multiversal xeno goku in one of the movies is capable oof destroying reality with powerups fighting beings who have full control over omniverses etc xeno goku is downplayed a lot
@heykorby: i agree he doesnt cap at that but neither does zeno goku im pretty sure in the newest series he is stronger than the grand kai of time btw the same grand kai who can casually create and destroy multiversal timelines and he is stronger than her by leagues
@killmonger101: Simon actually grew stronger then this btw. Anti spiral was absolutely ragdolling them and holding back until the final clash with STTGL, where Simon actually got into a H2H fight with the anti spiral, who was at that point using his full power.
@heykorby: he wasnt using his full power actually antispiral nerfed himself purposefully according to spiral king so he could make simon feel dispair he fought them on equal footing
@dogsrus: He was nerfed for 90% of the fight, but Simon actually started evenly clashing with him and ended up beating him. it makes no sense for the Anti Spiral to continue holding back if he’s on the precipice of defeat.
@heykorby: but it would alsoo defeat the purpose antispiral wanted simon too feel dispair to do that he needed to beat him on equal terms and there is no evidence that anti spiral ever used his full power especially since the actualy antispiral could make thousands of multiverses in seconds passively withh a thought but then the antispiral that fought sttgl best attack was universal which killed laganza spiral king and was even harming or threatening if not going to outright destroy the pervious form of gurren lagann
@dogsrus: The first thing SGGL did was reach out its hand and close it. It's fingertips drilled through space, shattered it, and teleported its enemy into its hand.
Later, it shot lasers in every direction through portals leading to a mathematical paradox. It literally shot things that didn't exist right in the math and killed them.
That was 2 forms ago.
IIRC shattering space is sub moon level in the verse.
Where did you get the paradox stuff from? I remember shooting into the past and future but thats about it.
@dogsrus: The attack is something that’s fueled by the anti spirals power, and if you go back and watch the scene anti spiral is even surprised and states something like “No being should be capable of withstanding our power“ meaning Simon was finally even with him in power. at that point in time the Anti spiral had no logical reason to hold back anymore, considering he was literally about to be defeated and everything he was attempting to accomplish would have been for nothing.
@heykorby: well sure but there is no attack that he claims is stronger than his big bang attack unless i am mistaken which is why it isnt a stomp for sttgl i agree sttgl is multiversal quite easily but i am saying he isnt going to stomp xeno goku they are closer in power tan you realise
@dogsrus: Unless the multiverse is infinite then it doesn’t compare to what Simon can do and what his existence is at this point. Anti spirals attack being reminiscent of a big bang doesn’t matter because he’s fueling the beam with his own power, which is clearly above universal.
@heykorby: that would be the case if they didnt state that it had as much power or close to a big bang and the fact that the power of the bigbang was still relevant and potentially going to destroy gurren lagann if it was for the spiral king getting involved
and each microcosm in the db verse is already infinite by microcosm i mean heaven hell etc which chars like the grand kai of time can easily erase from existence and recreate whenever they wish who is currently fodder to xeno goku
Simon is way too fast for Goku, first of all, size difference alone makes it difficult for Goku to even perceive him.
Simon has, on top of that, absorption on the scale of a whole infinite multiverse + not to mention can attack across past, present and future, even in spaces beyond space and time where Anti Spiral literally exists everywhere due to it being his own domain.
Keysword won't work, Simon would break out via Spiral Power's reactive evolution or just pull a "believe in humanity's spirit!", and surpass Goku as that's the whole concept of Spiral power which defies even fate and the karmic cycle in verse. Not that I consider Simon weaker, he is far, far stronger to the point he oneshots.
@lilacplasmabeam: @estrelladeleonn:thats not how spiral power work it evolves but only gets stronger he got stronge enough to manipulate reality and the 10th dimension however he never was equal to the antispiral the antispiral fought him on equal terms he's best attack was his big bang attack which is equated to the power of a universe this fight is a lot closer than you think in terms of resistances goku fought the grand kai of time who can freely destroy and create multiversal timeslines and that was a far weaker zeno goku
If the other verse has these infinite multiversal characters overpowering each other, then they aren't infinite in physical power. I've heard they affect things on such a scale via specific abilities and whatnot. If this is the case, this makes a lot more sense.
@dogsrus: I mean you can defeat someone with infinite power through abstract means/"hax", but if you're just beating the shit out of them with more power, yeah, they don't have infinite power.
@nwname: fought and defeated the grand kai of time who has made multiverses and erases them on whims and currently is fodder to even base xeno goku
She did not create the timelines afaik and the histories destroyed were via burning time scrolls lol this is no different that arguing Captain America is multiversal for moving around a multiverse by moving soul stone. Doesn't scale to stats at all, it's not some grand cosmic feat.
@dogsrus: Unless the multiverse is infinite then it doesn’t compare to what Simon can do and what his existence is at this point. Anti spirals attack being reminiscent of a big bang doesn’t matter because he’s fueling the beam with his own power, which is clearly above universal.
They got the energy reading and told it was equal to the big bang. That's all there is to it, anti-spiral crushing 2 galaxies into a ball and powering it into an attack was big bang level.
Simon is way too fast for Goku, first of all, size difference alone makes it difficult for Goku to even perceive him.
Simon has, on top of that, absorption on the scale of a whole infinite multiverse + not to mention can attack across past, present and future, even in spaces beyond space and time where Anti Spiral literally exists everywhere due to it being his own domain.
Keysword won't work, Simon would break out via Spiral Power's reactive evolution or just pull a "believe in humanity's spirit!", and surpass Goku as that's the whole concept of Spiral power which defies even fate and the karmic cycle in verse. Not that I consider Simon weaker, he is far, far stronger to the point he oneshots.
His combat speed is fodder. Normal humans were perceiving TTGL and Spiral fight just fine from earth.
"Human spirit amp" was not enough a lot of times, they started getting outside energy towards the end of the series a lot like energy from the spiral abyss to evolve and in case of STTGL absorbing the big bang via Lordgenome sacrificing himself.
They got the energy reading and told it was equal to the big bang. That's all there is to it, anti-spiral crushing 2 galaxies into a ball and powering it into an attack was big bang level.
And? that was when he was building up the attack itself, not when he fully released the attack. Your also overlooking the fact that the beam was continuous from him and was fueled directly by his own power, meaning its not capped at just universal. Argue with the head writer, who created GL as a whole and wrote all of it.
"When Simon awakens without hesitation, he intergrates with the multiverse and rescues the members of the Team Dai-Gurren from the endless chain of possibilities. Finally getting Nia back from the Anti-Spiral. As Gurren Lagann emitted a new light, the final evolution of Gurren Lagann began."
His combat speed is fodder. Normal humans were perceiving TTGL and Spiral fight just fine from earth.
Are you trolling or just stupid?
"The fact that everyone on the ground was watching a galactic battle on a galactic scale gave a sense of scale that was very much like a GAINAX work.
Imaishi: Oh, is that so? I got a good laugh at the scenario meeting (laughs). When I said, "I want you to be able to see it in real time," Nakashima said, "That's not possible! He told me. So in the play, the space-time is twisted and the image is projected, but I wanted it to be seen live, in real time. They're fighting in that galaxy over there! like that. Yeah, it's too big to see (laughs).
Imaishi: Yes, that's right. What do you think about being able to see it because it's so big? When I asked him about it, he said no. What's more, you're talking about where the galaxy is.
Otsuka: It would take tens of thousands of years to see them.
Imaishi: Well, I think that's true. But by that time, I'm sure Nakashima-san will have found another reason for it! (laughs) because I was expecting it. I didn't say anything, thinking, "Maybe if I say something like this, Mr. Nakashima will come up with something good that doesn't change the picture."
@nwname: The paradox was shooting the past and future at once. To hit what were essentially imaginary numbers, to my understanding of how Shrodinger Warp worked.
But also uk ur playin with that "combat speed is fodder" arguement. Speed is more perceptible at distance, that's why flying planes look slow and relativistic jets from quasars look stationary. Just the fact that they were visibly moving from across space and another universe is absurd. It's nonsense speeds.
But back on topic, Goku doesn't have any way to stop this thing from hitting him and any damage he may cause is meaningless when the thing can be splattered and squashed to a energy-blood smear and just reform.
@seventhmoon: They don't. Simon scales higher than Xeno Goku, but notice you hate infinite multiversal scales. Xeno Goku relies on infinite multiversal statements as does Simon moreso. So if you want to Ignore this simon still destroys
An attack capable of destroying a higher dimensional universe will be indefinitely greater than an attack destroying a normal 3D/4D universe, how much is debatable but it must be greater to some magnitude. More Spatial dimensions are more degrees of freedom. It cannot be lesser, it's impossible, it's a more complex spacetime. The attack is going to ignore his durability anyway, because the attack itself comes from 11 dimensions of spacetime, meanwhile Goku is physically 3D, like a 3D being attacking a 2D being existing in an infinitely flat plane in comparison. The attacks are intangible to him. He can't do anything
Even if you don't like this because it goes against your criteria, despite the statements being straightforward, Simon can also attack Goku in the past, present, future.
@seventhmoon: They don't. Simon scales higher than Xeno Goku, but notice you hate infinite multiversal scales. Xeno Goku relies on infinite multiversal statements as does Simon moreso. So if you want to Ignore this simon still destroys
An attack capable of destroying a higher dimensional universe (simon surviving the Anti Spirals attacks) will be indefinitely greater than an attack destroying a normal 3D/4D universe, how much is debatable but it must be greater to some magnitude. More Spatial dimensions are more degrees of freedom. It cannot be lesser, it's impossible, it's a more complex spacetime. The attack is going to ignore his durability anyway, because the attack itself comes from 11 dimensions of spacetime, meanwhile Goku is physically 3D, like a 3D being attacking a 2D being existing in an infinitely flat plane in comparison. The attacks are intangible to him. He can't do anything
Even if you don't like this because it goes against your criteria, despite the statements being straightforward, Simon can also attack Goku in the past, present, future.
I like Goku but he's fucked either way
Question: What will happen with those said higher dimensions, the moment STTGL and Anti-Spiral destroy the universe they fight within? Wouldn´t it collapse like a cardhouse? Like how can 11-D universe exist, when taken the 3-D structure away?
I mean sure, some verses might go with higher dimensions in a way you will get unique advantages out of a fight (But Mostly because of range, or attacks lacking extra coordinates to affect such entities), but how does that appear to higher dimensions in GL? Are those even in a way abstract to become independent of the collapse from the lower universe?
Also aren´t those higher dimensions still depended on gravity, energy, etc.?
From what i saw dimensional stuff in fiction often follows with heavy contradiction by their functions.
Question: What will happen with those said higher dimensions, the moment STTGL and Anti-Spiral destroy the universe they fight within? Wouldn´t it collapse like a cardhouse? Like how can 11-D universe exist, when taken the 3-D structure away?
No. The same structures that exist in lower dimensions also exist in higher ones. They are independent of each other.
@theheadmasterxx: the destruction of a normal 3D universe wouldn't affect the 11d structure even if its embedded in there, if that's what you mean, maybe i got your question wrong
Super dimensional space can have those qualities (energy, gravity) but they'd be higher dimensional in nature. I'd be inaccessible to lower dimensional phenomenon, at least that's how I understand it
They got the energy reading and told it was equal to the big bang. That's all there is to it, anti-spiral crushing 2 galaxies into a ball and powering it into an attack was big bang level.
And? that was when he was building up the attack itself, not when he fully released the attack. Your also overlooking the fact that the beam was continuous from him and was fueled directly by his own power, meaning its not capped at just universal. Argue with the head writer, who created GL as a whole and wrote all of it.
"When Simon awakens without hesitation, he intergrates with the multiverse and rescues the members of the Team Dai-Gurren from the endless chain of possibilities. Finally getting Nia back from the Anti-Spiral. As Gurren Lagann emitted a new light, the final evolution of Gurren Lagann began."
This has nothing to do with that attack tho. And it has been charging for a while now and they never comment on it getting higher later either. They were also all scared of a reading that high, posting something unrelated from an outside source doesn't change the meaning of the scene.
His combat speed is fodder. Normal humans were perceiving TTGL and Spiral fight just fine from earth.
Are you trolling or just stupid?
"The fact that everyone on the ground was watching a galactic battle on a galactic scale gave a sense of scale that was very much like a GAINAX work.
Imaishi: Oh, is that so? I got a good laugh at the scenario meeting (laughs). When I said, "I want you to be able to see it in real time," Nakashima said, "That's not possible! He told me. So in the play, the space-time is twisted and the image is projected, but I wanted it to be seen live, in real time. They're fighting in that galaxy over there! like that. Yeah, it's too big to see (laughs).
Imaishi: Yes, that's right. What do you think about being able to see it because it's so big? When I asked him about it, he said no. What's more, you're talking about where the galaxy is.
Otsuka: It would take tens of thousands of years to see them.
Imaishi: Well, I think that's true. But by that time, I'm sure Nakashima-san will have found another reason for it! (laughs) because I was expecting it. I didn't say anything, thinking, "Maybe if I say something like this, Mr. Nakashima will come up with something good that doesn't change the picture."
Learn to read before insulting people over your own lack of reading comprehension, this is talking about how light would take so long to travel the distance between them due to scale so they wouldn't be visible for 10000s of years. This doesn't imply their movements are slowed down at all. 10 000s of years is not shorter than seconds/minutes so if you interpret this in another way than "light would take long to reach" it only makes them waaay slower than normal humans in terms of combat/reaction speed.
@nwname: The paradox was shooting the past and future at once. To hit what were essentially imaginary numbers, to my understanding of how Shrodinger Warp worked.
But also uk ur playin with that "combat speed is fodder" arguement. Speed is more perceptible at distance, that's why flying planes look slow and relativistic jets from quasars look stationary. Just the fact that they were visibly moving from across space and another universe is absurd. It's nonsense speeds.
But back on topic, Goku doesn't have any way to stop this thing from hitting him and any damage he may cause is meaningless when the thing can be splattered and squashed to a energy-blood smear and just reform.
I don't think shooting missiles to past and future is a paradox.
Exactly, speed is more perceptible at distance, thus something coming at 1000 light years per second from 10000 light years away is pretty easy to reach to thus they have bad combat speed. Their travel speed is insane but due to their gigantic size it would be extremely easy for Goku to react to oncoming attacks with IT. (Then again they can hit him with probability and time missiles but you get the point, their normal attacks would be easy to dodge).
This Goku lacks feats, its all just people wanking chain reactions and scaling to those somehow as far as i can tell after reading one of the heroes mangas. I'm just arguing against wank on both sides.
@nwname: Travel speed isn't really a factor when they can teleport their opponent or their attacks directly onto the opponent by shattering space. Distance is essentially a nonfactor.
But as far as combat speed, that's what determines how fast those attacks come and that much isn't slowed by relative perspective due to moving through space being completely optional in the first place.
Id even argue that since they can pierce between dimensions and universes, as well as tag an Ashtanga in mathematical nothingness they could likely tag Goku even during an IT the exact same way. I think people like to argue S/TTGL as raw stats since their showings were somewhat muted by the fact that the enemy had the exact same powerset, neutralizing most of their hax...but they still have every hax they ever used and the 3 piece of targeting things pretty much anywhere in the multiverse, ignoring travel by piercing space, and probability-guaranteed hits is a wildly broken combination.
@nwname: Travel speed isn't really a factor when they can teleport their opponent or their attacks directly onto the opponent by shattering space. Distance is essentially a nonfactor.
But as far as combat speed, that's what determines how fast those attacks come and that much isn't slowed by relative perspective due to moving through space being completely optional in the first place.
Id even argue that since they can pierce between dimensions and universes, as well as tag an Ashtanga in mathematical nothingness they could likely tag Goku even during an IT the exact same way. I think people like to argue S/TTGL as raw stats since their showings were somewhat muted by the fact that the enemy had the exact same powerset, neutralizing most of their hax...but they still have every hax they ever used and the 3 piece of targeting things pretty much anywhere in the multiverse, ignoring travel by piercing space, and probability-guaranteed hits is a wildly broken combination.
Yeah i agree the hax attacks can tag Goku. They don't spam those though but they still use them sometimes and Goku would get hit. They can also hit him in the past when hes off guard and kill him way easier.
I don't think their hax were negated, probability missiles worked on anti spiral.
@jermainekoloch: They don't. Simon scales higher than Xeno Goku
That's fine, that's fine. I'm just saying dimensional arguments aren't the way to prove strength.
but notice you hate infinite multiversal scales.
I don't. It's just that most seem to not qualify for it, neither STTGL or Xeno Goku.
Xeno Goku relies on infinite multiversal statements as does Simon moreso. So if you want to Ignore this simon still destroys
Yeah, neither are infinite. I'm not just applying this to STTGL.
An attack capable of destroying a higher dimensional universe will be indefinitely greater than an attack destroying a normal 3D/4D universe, how much is debatable but it must be greater to some magnitude.
Why must it be greater? Geometric dimensions are just about adding more directions. They have nothing to do with greater power or magnitude. Hell, things like energy flow freely throughout such dimensions, as they are scalars, not vectors. And higher geometric dimensions are built upon the lower ones. The 4th dimension is built and contingent upon the 3rd, to which the third is built and contingent upon the 2nd, etc. That means if you destroy a lower dimension, the higher dimensions collapse too. And if you can attack a 4-D person on a 3-D level, as they are made up of 3-D parts still.
The attack is going to ignore his durability anyway, because the attack itself comes from 11 dimensions of spacetime
How does that make it ignore durability?
Even if you don't like this because it goes against your criteria, despite the statements being straightforward, Simon can also attack Goku in the past, present, future.
Question: What will happen with those said higher dimensions, the moment STTGL and Anti-Spiral destroy the universe they fight within? Wouldn´t it collapse like a cardhouse? Like how can 11-D universe exist, when taken the 3-D structure away?
No. The same structures that exist in lower dimensions also exist in higher ones. They are independent of each other.
Higher geometric spatial dimensions are built off the foundation of lower dimensions and are thus contingent upon them. The fourth dimension is contingent upon the third as its foundation, which is contingent upon the second for the same reason, etc. Remove the length and width of the lower dimensions. Now how can the third dimension exist when it is composed of such things?
You can't. It's contingent on those properties, as they serve as the foundation upon which its own exclusive property emerges. Apples cannot grow without trees.
As for R>F types of dimensions, any layer but the highest one is sub-reality level in the same way video game worlds are lesser worlds that are qualitatively inferior to and contingent upon the higher physical true reality, meaning it's not impressive to have them.
@jermainekoloch: They don't. Simon scales higher than Xeno Goku
That's fine, that's fine. I'm just saying dimensional arguments aren't the way to prove strength.
but notice you hate infinite multiversal scales.
I don't. It's just that most seem to not qualify for it, neither STTGL or Xeno Goku.
Xeno Goku relies on infinite multiversal statements as does Simon moreso. So if you want to Ignore this simon still destroys
Yeah, neither are infinite. I'm not just applying this to STTGL.
An attack capable of destroying a higher dimensional universe will be indefinitely greater than an attack destroying a normal 3D/4D universe, how much is debatable but it must be greater to some magnitude.
Why must it be greater? Geometric dimensions are just about adding more directions. They have nothing to do with greater power or magnitude. Hell, things like energy flow freely throughout such dimensions, as they are scalars, not vectors. And higher geometric dimensions are built upon the lower ones. The 4th dimension is built and contingent upon the 3rd, to which the third is built and contingent upon the 2nd, etc. That means if you destroy a lower dimension, the higher dimensions collapse too. And if you can attack a 4-D person on a 3-D level, as they are made up of 3-D parts still.
The attack is going to ignore his durability anyway, because the attack itself comes from 11 dimensions of spacetime
How does that make it ignore durability?
Even if you don't like this because it goes against your criteria, despite the statements being straightforward, Simon can also attack Goku in the past, present, future.
Question: What will happen with those said higher dimensions, the moment STTGL and Anti-Spiral destroy the universe they fight within? Wouldn´t it collapse like a cardhouse? Like how can 11-D universe exist, when taken the 3-D structure away?
No. The same structures that exist in lower dimensions also exist in higher ones. They are independent of each other.
Higher geometric spatial dimensions are built off the foundation of lower dimensions and are thus contingent upon them. The fourth dimension is contingent upon the third as its foundation, which is contingent upon the second for the same reason, etc. Remove the length and width of the lower dimensions. Now how can the third dimension exist when it is composed of such things?
You can't. It's contingent on those properties, as they serve as the foundation upon which its own exclusive property emerges. Apples cannot grow without trees.
As for R>F types of dimensions, any layer but the highest one is sub-reality level in the same way video game worlds are lesser worlds that are qualitatively inferior to and contingent upon the higher physical true reality, meaning it's not impressive to have them.
I feel like i should point out, STTGL is not 10.5 dimensional, its just that anti-spirals pocket universe is located between the 10th and 11th dimensions and those being n-branes is wrong, he says membrane not brane. Also Goku has no way to access higher dimensions (if STTGL was actually 10.5? dimensional), only way of doing that is extreme gravity and i guess we all know how much DB sucks in that department.
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