You are given 10 character points and 15 perk points to be spent exclusively on their respective fields (unless certain perks are obtained to excuse otherwise)
Win by Death, Incap, or KO. Standard Gear.
DC Characters are composite Post Crisis New 52 and Rebirth, standard power levels. Marvel is 616 and current unless directly stated otherwise.
Unless otherwise stated Wildstorm characters are allowed their feats from DC comics.
Manga characters are manga/anime/novel.
Dragon Ball characters are restricted up to Cell Saga and are manga/movie, no anime feats.
Video Game Characters get Game/Tie in comic material.
Star Wars is EU: Everyone is also allowed their canon feats and are current.
No reality-warping (powers that may fall under this or have some association will be dealt with on a case by case basis due to the broad/vague nature of reality-warping).
No Luck Manipulation
No Existence Erasure or Conceptual Attacks.
No Power Stealing, Power Copying/Sharing is limited to present allies only, though characters like Amazo still have their capabilities.
No Summons, constructs, or any other fodder can be stronger than or amped beyond a FTL speed Jupiter Buster.
Summons, constructs or any other fodder cannot possess any durability bypassing hax themselves.
Summons, constructs, or any other fodder are limited to a cap of 1000.
Cloning is limited to 50.
Immortality is allowed but if a character has their all physical presence on the battlefield destroyed then they are considered to be KO'd and are out of the fight.
Characters without a tangible physical form are not allowed (I.E. ghosts, conceptual forms, etc) though intangibility is fine.
Time Jumping, remnants, and speeding up or rewinding one's own time is allowed. Other forms of time manipulation are banned.
Battlefield Removal (BFR) is allowed but has a time limit of one minute.
Characters cannot be argued or amped above Star Busting and Picosecond speeds under anycircumstances. Any example of this being broken will result in a immediate disqualification, no questions asked. Hax will similarly be judged under this scale when necessary.
Character requests are completely fine! I will need either a fully cited RT or at least a majority of the feats that said character has, however, alongside full disclosure on how strong you think they are. If I discover that you've hidden feats that are off-limits or that break rules, I will provide a immediate disqualification, no questions asked.
Posts should be done within the space of 12 days. Extensions can be requested ahead of time: please be reasonable about these if you do end up asking for one because I'm not going to be giving you more than a week at the very most unless you're near death. Respect the patience of myself and those who are waiting to post.
Battlefield
The battle takes place in an uninhabited solar system analogous to our own. Contestants start on an Earth-like planet that will reform after being destroyed 100m away from each other.
@higherpower Sorry, my initial strategy was to freeze your team in a time bubble and age them indefinitely, then I read the rules so I had to rethink. Post will be up (late) tonight!
note that some of these character bios are from my previous debates
Team
Rachel Grey
Rachel Summers (or Prestige, because I like that name better) is a high level telepath with some extreme highs and lows. For simplicity, and fairness, I'm just going to stick to the middle of the road feats, which are still incredibly impressive.
It should also be noted that Rachel got a bit of a power "awakening" in the late 2000's that permanently boosted her telepathic capability, so some of the earlier stuff really isn't even her going nearly as hard as she can in her current version.
Offensive TP
When it comes to battle, Rachel has a slew of impressive telepathic attack feats:
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In the first scan, she lashes out with psi-bolts. Note, in this scan Xavier himself says that her psi-bolts are as formidable as his own. As many know, Xavier is widely regarded as one of (if not the) strongest telepath is the Marvel universe. Now I won't claim that she is his equal, I think this (and other things) prove that her offensive telepathic capability is more than capable of taking out most of her opponents.
In scan two, her psi-bolt knocks out Magma (who was illusioned to be Selene.)
In scans three and four, she lashes out at Xavier and destroys his astral projection.
In scans five and six, she takes out an entire crowd with her psi-energy.
In the final three scans, she visits Storm telepathically from an entirely different area. She also travels (astrally) to other areas with Storm.
Time Manipulation
She has two key chronokinetic abilities and both are very important, the first is Psionic Transference, which allows her to send a person's consciousness into the past.
If you want a TLDR, if you watched X-Men Days of Future Past, remember what Kitty did to Logan? It's that.
For the extended version, that storyline from the DoFP movie is actually a play on what happened in the comics, as in the original DoFP storyline, Prestige was the one who sent Kitty decades into the past.
Rachel essentially replaced present day Kitty Pryde with Future Kate Pryde, allowing for Kitty to retell the X-Men the events of the future to stop them.
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Uncanny X-Men (1963) #141 and #142
Additionally, after the mission was complete, to escape the future dystopia she lives in, Prestige sent herself physically back in the timestream (although she did slip-up and go to the wrong timeline, but we'll elaborate on that later.)
Uncanny X-Men (1963) #188
Her second time related ability, "chronoskimming" essentially allows for Rachel to see past events in an object, person, or place.
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X-Factor (2020) #2
During an investigation into the disappearance of Aurora, she utilized chronoskimming to retrace her last moments in the hotel. As seen in the scans, it's accuracy increases when she has items to draw psionic feedback from to gain more clarity.
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X-Men: The Trial of Magneto (can't remember the issue off the top of my head and I'm not re-downloading that trash series to find out.)
While investigating the death of Scarlet Witch, she is able to gather a pretty in-depth visualization with chronoskimming of what happened right before Wanda's death.
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X-Factor (2020) #5
Here, due to Rockslide being physically present, she is able to go all the way back through Rockslide's life history (in this body it was only a week's worth, for clarity.)
Selene
Selene is a mixed bag of abilities, and like most mutants, that includes telepathy.
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In scan one, she mentally assaults Rachel Grey. While Rachel wasn't incredibly adept at her telepathy at this time, she still was had a base level of psychic defense due to her telepathy.
In scans two and three, she creates an illusion to fool Rachel into harming Magma.
In scan four, her mental attack is able to knock back to Hulk.
In scan five, she uses magic to convince her enemy that he is on fire.
In scan six, she uses an illusion to make herself invisible.
In the final scan, she mentally controls an entire crowd of men.
Additionally, she's fairly a adept life drainer.
She life-drains in pretty much every comic she's been in, but here's some of her highlights:
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In the first scan, her lifedrain is so potent that it beats out Rogue's own lifedrain, which is strong enough to drain individuals such as Captain Marvel, Legion, and Wonder Man.
In the second and third scans, her lifedrain is so potent that is completely decimates it's victims.
In the final scan, she's able to lifedrain two innocents before Rescue can...rescue them
Tempo
Time Slowing/Speeding
Before we get into the offense, let's first discuss how she uses them to debilitate her opponents.
She can use her powers to slow time to varying levels, for example, to stop Rogue from attacking, Tempo accelerates and decelerates time at a five millisecond cycle, completely stopping her momentum:
She slows down time on a bomb to convert the seconds it had until detonation into minutes:
Tempo slows a group of enemies down to a decisecond, making them relatively immobile.
She completely fast forwards through her breakup without Bouncer even noticing initially.
However, Tempo's most deadly power application is her de-aging.
De-Aging and Time Attacks
With one touch, she completely kills her opponent, dusting them down to the bone.
This process is not exclusive to humanoids either, as she can't age things such a hard light beings, but can utilize her time manipulation to bend projectiles.
Doctor Voodoo
Doctor Voodoo is one of the most renowned sorcerers, starting in voodoo magic, and expanding to various forms throughout training over the years.
Magic Training and Spells
As previously stated, Jericho initially was trained as a voodoo magic practitioner, and is still highly proficient in the field. As the Hougan Supreme, he is able to utilize the dead and spirits to his desire.
He commands a group of spirits to attack the demon lord, Nightmare.
When Scarlet Witch is thrown out of orbit, he commands Air Spirits to give her the ability to breathe in space.
He sees through the human disguises of skinwalkers, and exorcises them.
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Jericho conjures numerous Black Knight's of the past to come to his aid.
While Jericho may be an expert in voodoo, he also was the Sorcerer Supreme at one point, which enabled him access to the Sanctum Sanctorum, making him study numerous new spells and magic techniques.
Some of these spells and abilities include ones iconically used by Doctor Strange, such as:
An exorcism spell from the Book of Vishanti, purging spirits from several hosts.
A stasis spell, completely immobilizing Wonder Man while in energy form:
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The Shield of Seraphim and Winds of Watoomb, both fairly standard Doctor Strange spells.
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Time Manipulation
Jericho is extremely knowledge in the art of traveling through time, so much so that he teaches a class of young magicians on the technique.
He was able to completely halt time in a nearby area in order to discreetly talk to Moon Knight.
He also is able to detect where a student of his traveled in time, save him, and travel back.
Manifold
Manifold is a more streamlined character than Koragg, but is still fairly complex and powerful. Eden Fesi's mutant ability allows him to literally communicate with space, allowing him to ask it for favors.
As you can see above, he can essentially ask the universe to do anything, which makes him have huge NLF potential, but for the sake of the debate, I'll stick to the list of things he's actually done on the page, which hold quite a bit of weight by themself.
His most notable ability is teleportation via portals, which are referenced in the scan above:
If he tells the universe to fold itself until he can walk across it in a single step, it does."
He can pretty much travel anywhere with these:
These portals have little to no sound either apparently, as he easily sneaks Black Panther into a guarded room with one:
Since he was almost exclusively a teleport for the first few years he was in comics, he has some very impressive teleportation feats, such as:
Additionally, he can use these portals offensively by using this as conduits for his space manipulation. Here, he creates a portal within the heart of the sun to send at a Knull Infected Cable.
He can also trap people within his portals, as he did against Adam Blackveil.
The last portal related thing I want to highlight is the amount of portals he can summon at the same time. During a battle, he was able to use summon twenty portals and suck the creatures through them, spitting them out into the otherside.
He is able to make them large enough to transport large scale groups of people as well, including ship vessels:
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Space Manipulation
His expanded space manipulation is a fairly new development, so it doesn't have as many feats as his portals, but it still has some strong capabilities.
As shown in the first scan of Manifold's section, he can ask the universe for invisibility, however, he can use it on other objects as well, being able to utilize it on a wall:
Also as shown earlier, he can create a portal within the center of the sun to use an offensive attack. In addition to that, he can take a piece of the sun, make it harmless to him (and others, like Frenzy in that same scan), and use it as an offensive attack. Obviously we all know the sun is hot (approx 27m degrees), but it's also worth noting that it was able to free Young Cable from Knull's Symbiote Infection, showing that this isn't just a statement, it is more than likely that it is the actual heat of the sun.
Another thing to note about that scan is that he has evolved to not even need the portal to protect himself from danger at this point, he can simply ask the universe for protection, which is very strong here.
That is generally it for Manifold, a simple character with a very high ceiling, one that will be used to it's max capacity here.
Synch
Synch is a mutant with the ability to copy the abilities of fellow super powered individuals. While he most primarily synchronizes with mutants, his abilities to expand to non-mutant abilities. For the purpose of this match however, in regard to my team Synch will only copy the abilities of the mutants (on our side.)
One of the key aspects of Synch’s mutant power is that he not only is able to replicate abilities, but utilize them better than the original user.
Synergies
Time Manipulation
Voodoo, Rachel Grey, and Tempo all can manipulate time in varieties of ways (expanded feats in character sections). With Synch being able to link to both Rachel and Tempo, time will be on our side here.
Due to tournament rules, we are limited to our time manipulation, but it still gives us a lot of freedom during the battle.
During our prep time, we will mostly familiarize ourselves with each others abilities, and give Synch time to have synchronization with each of our abilities (allowing him for free use in the future without their direct presence.)
Manifold will shield us in invisibility, giving us another nice boon in this fight.
Rachel and Selene will put up mental barriers on us, allowing some baseline protection from mental attack.
Battle
As soon as the battle begins, Tempo will teleport our team into the future and Rachel will chronoskim the match, allowing us to see how the battle played out. This will give us information on the oppositions team, their battle tactics, and their what we need to do/not do to succeed in this battle. Synch will use Jean Grey’s telepathy to imprint the memories of battle into my teams minds. It’s also worth noting that due to the (expected) nature of this battle, my team will know that this is a potential life threatening encounter, and after seeing the results, they will be more incentivized to act outside of moral character.
After we get a full analysis of the match, we will teleport back to the battle. Given that we’ll now know your strategy, it’ll be easier to combat anything your team does. Additionally, Synch and Tempo’s light speed advantage gives us even more advantage here. As soon as we’re back on the field, Synch will link to Manifold and create dozens of mini projectiles with the heat of the sun and hurl them down upon your team. In unison, Tempo will put the projectiles through a time bubble to speed them up (similar to what she did to Rogue in her character section, just offensively), making them go at near instantaneous speeds. These are dozens of literal sun pieces and they’ll be coming at your team within seconds of battle start, creating a nice opener for the rest of my teams attack (if it doesn’t outright kill most of your team.)
Selene and Rachel will instantly begin the telepathic assault, and due to the knowledge of the battle prior, they will know to instantly go for your non telepaths (everyone but Spawn.) Once they're taken out, they'll focus on Spawn. He would face a similar fate to the others, as the sheer combined efforts of Selene, Rachel, and the power of a peak Jean Grey far outclasses anything Spawn has handled before.
I’m assuming that you will be creating summons due to your team and perks, and if Manifold sees them, he will automatically teleport them into the sun.
Spawn will obviously be a problem in general, but I do feel confident that that beginning sun assault will weaken him significantly, and give our team time to take out the others. It’s also very likely that the rest of your team is dead after that initial assault, which means that this essentially becomes my team against Spawn.
In that case, I think we have a fairly clear win. Synch can adopt Spawn’s own powers, and while he won’t have the skill initially to match Spawn one for one, his telepathy can download Spawn’s knowledge in less than a second. Additionally, as shown earlier, he will become Spawn’s better due to the nature of his ability, allowing him to harness Spawn’s ability slightly more than the limit of God Spawn here.
While Synch battles with Spawn directly, Rachel and Selene will continue with the telepathic assaults upon him. I know Spawn isn’t a stranger to telepathy, but he’s never been faced with two telepaths of their tier.
We also have Voodoo here, who is no stranger to battling magical entities. He'll know the proper magic techniques to use against Spawn with future battle knowledge, allowing him a very advantageous role against Spawn magically.
An additional important note, if at any point we think that we are losing, Tempo can reset my entire team to match start.
If she wants to pull time back, she can without much effort (and incredibly quickly, with her boost.) This is a battle that we can do over, and over, and over again. Each time, we can time jump to recap (for clarity, Tempo retains memories throughout time jumps, which we can share with the team via telepathy) the events of the battle if we failed, and learn how to prevent them. As long as Tempo or Synch lives, they will be able to prevent the defeat of our team indefinitely.
Our strategy is fairly simple, but one that is effective and isn’t easy to get out of it. Excited to see your response!
@higherpower@professorrespect Okay, opener is up! Just a note that I will probably add some scans to Synch's character section, and add some missing links within the next day, Not changing any text.
@youngjustice: Great post man, I like your team and the strategy. Here's to a good match!
I'm using my whole team this time to keep up with the spirit of the thread. I'll divide my members up to define their roles more clearly here. Starting with-
The Preppers
Captain Cold and The Engineer will do the heavy lifting during prep. Their main asset is their technological prowess, the potential of which will be fully realized when combining their strengths.
The Engineer
Angela will be especially dangerous here as she is endowed with Reed Richard's brainpower. Thanks to her technopathy, this gives her access to a wellspring of indispensable knowledge and information that she'll make the most of. Angela's body is a shapeshifting liquid; she has metal blood flowing with nanites that enable a variety of capabilities. They allow her to adapt to almost any experience, environment, or stimuli, protecting her from adverse effects as soon as she encounters them, and providing her with great control over technology. She can rearrange matter around her at the atomic level, spread and construct biological and technological viruses, absorb and manipulate energy, generate electrical storms and force fields, completely control the battleground, and create complex machines and inventions out of thin air.
Because of the cloning limits, they'll be restricted to 50, but that's more than enough to get the job done. So here's some crucial information: The Engineer is a bit of a "meta" character. But this quality is canon to her and the way the Wildstorm was written. Angela has read and owns every single DC comic published since 1956! It was explicitly stated that when she was growing up, as a comic book addict, she fantasized about the stories of the Flash and Green Lantern. This means she already knows everything there is to know about Captain Cold since pre-Crisis. Which will be very helpful in their collaborative efforts here. Once the bodies have been produced, Angela will use radiotelepathy to mind-link the entire team and keep them in perfect sync during the building stage and the actual battle.
With the stage set, the next phase of my prep involves Engineer and Captain Cold recreating tech they've made before or would know how to construct thanks to Reed Richard's brainpower. Angela will then use her clones and nanites to mass-produce them on an assembly line as if she were a walking corporate manufacturer.
This is not only easy to accomplish in a matter of minutes, but it's also in-character and plausible considering they've both pulled off more complicated feats in shorter amounts of time and worse situations without nearly as many resources. Captain Cold for example rebuilt his Cold Gun while incarcerated using spare freezer parts he found in prison.
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Meanwhile, The Engineer can create constructs or replicate them out of thin air on the fly, such as emergency medical equipment to stabilize a grievously wounded Midnighter. So going through the trouble of rebuilding them isn't even necessary. She can produce anything she needs if she understands the technology. She should be capable of understanding any technology you can imagine, considering she was able to incorporate a baby universe inside The Authority's interdimensional spaceship the Carrier as its main energy source.
Though she is no longer fused with it, she maintains a radio-telepathic connection with the ship at all times and can remotely access its functions as part of her standard gear. The level of connection Angela can establish with any iota of metal, technology or mechanics can not be overstated because of the power of her nanites. The Engineer's blood is so densely concentrated with nanites that a single drop was able to exponentially multiply and spread throughout every tectonic fissure of the Earth's crust in moments, fuse with Skywatch's construct, and reinforce a new mantle for the entire planet that made it more durable and robust than it was before Armageddon, or ever had been at any point in its history.
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So Angela can easily fuse with the planet, making her nearly impossible to detect once you spawn, and further impossible to assault once she reinforces its structural integrity and additionally sets up exterior defenses. Angela can project shields that are invulnerable to attacks at the level of most of your characters, as she did when she created dozens of shields in orbit to protect the Earth from gigantic fireballs ejected from the Sun directly, blocking them from crashing into the planet:
As this was accomplished with clones, it should be noted that only one Angela (the primary) needs to fuse with the battlefield. The rest can set up shields that adapt to your attacks and layer them on top of each other, making them that much harder to penetrate. Generating multiple stacked shields that will be amped to the durability limits and can reform once broken, adapt to attacks thanks to nanites, and can be reapplied indefinitely. With the Carrier's Doors, she can open shields in the past as well as the future, offering complete coverage no matter where or when you attack her.
Now, what does Reed Richard's brainpower mean for her with all this?
Well, it means she becomes vastly harder to stand against. Reed Richards is widely regarded as the smartest character in the Marvel Universe. His knowledge and intelligence are such that he can inform cosmic powers with step-by-step details of how to recreate the entire universe from scratch. And he's done so twice.
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In terms of just the sheer scale and complexities of information down to the minutia, and the tenets of reality and existence in a setting like Marvel, this feat is pretty hard to beat short of omniscience. Molecule Man gave Reed the power of the Beyonders to rebuild the Marvel Multiverse after it was destroyed in Secret Wars along with Franklin thanks to his knowledge. MM is famously an "omniversal" character but still submits to Reed's brainpower and intellect.
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Then there's Reed's feat of creating a Mobius dimension that ignores literal paradoxes to trap Doctor Doom. The dimension is infinite in size while simultaneously being finite, and because of that contradiction, it is inescapable. Reed mentions that "There's no way out. For either of us." even though both characters can travel the multiverse.
Lastly, very recently Reed created a device that can separate overlapping universes on short notice. The last time an operation like this was done, it required the Infinity Gauntlet which broke in the process. So anything that can be built in the entire Marvel canon library is on the table here. Even without mentioning his over-the-limit inventions like Cosmic Cubes and The Ultimate Nullifier, or his capabilities to access the Infinity Gauntlet, Reed can do pretty much anything given time.
Captain Cold
As I've shown, Angela can recreate any technology she understands, and she understands and knows everything inside the entire Marvel multiverse thanks to Reed Richard's brainpower. Furthermore, she canonically has read every post-Crisis DC comic, and she understands the Carrier's tech which exists outside of space and time and can achieve an assortment of impossible time/space/dimensional/anomalous reality feats. So every major tech item within limits in both DC and Marvel is fair game here. This should prove she can manifest and empower Leonard's tech even if she hadn't read all of The Flash's comics. If you're just a natural skeptic and you still think I'm reaching, then consider the fact that my characters are mind-linked with TP, which means they'll communicate, pool their resources together, and share all the knowledge and information they have to employ the best strategy regardless.
Now, Captain Cold is a regular person who can consistently fight the Flash all because of his Cold weapons. His main weapon is his Cold Gun, which in short weaponizes Zero Point Energy; not just absolute zero. The reason why is that even at absolute zero, which is the complete halt of entropy, the fundamental particles retain quantum vibrational motion but at the minimum levels achievable naturally. Whereas the Cold Gun prevents the movement or generation of thermal energy and motion completely. According to Captain Cold himself, his gun "negates thermal motion and stops protons and electrons dead in their tracks."
So he doesn't necessarily freeze things as much as he completely invalidates thermodynamics. Things like regeneration still involve motion and the abstraction of energy transference. But anything frozen solid by Captain Cold simply becomes brittle and breaks off/disintegrates.
The strongest function of the Cold Gun is the Cold Field, which once deployed passively stops and freezes anything that enters its area of effect. According to Leonard himself, nothing short of a speeding Flash has enough momentum to move in the Cold Field, and even then "he'll be slowed to a crawl".
The Cold Field moves with Captain Cold maintaining an area of absolute defense around his body, passively shutting down anything that gets close to him. But that's not the extent of Captain Cold's technology or weapons. Leonard also has a standard utility belt with a devastating function, which I'll dub the Cold Wave. He generated an impulse of absolute cold across the entirety of Central City, leaving everyone and everything in a state of suspended animation. Only he and Iris were spared because he treated them with negative radiation beforehand, and the wave formed an impenetrable ice barrier that cut off the city from the rest of the world. The barrier was so strong that it was able to completely stonewall a speeding Flash, and he had to shift to a higher vibrational frequency and gradually drill through the ice - which again he did from the outside in. There's no guarantee he would've been able to move at all if he was already caught in it. The ice also closed up behind him so no one else could get in or out.
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The last and most important piece of Captain Cold's tech here is a special, evolved version of the Cold Gun that he built in Rebirth using S.T.A.R. Lab's black hole tech that created the Speed Force Storm. The gun has an engine inside of it that can tap into the Speed Force itself, and it not only freezes things like before, but now it can disrupt the Speed Force and prevent Flash from vibrating through it like he did moments before.
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This feat is obscenely impressive for so many reasons. Disrupting or absorbing the speed force is known to be impossible because it is an infinite energy source that has instantly overwhelmed drainers and siphons. Wally once ran so fast that Barry Allen (arguably the second fastest Flash) couldn't even perceive him, and he overloaded Cobalt Blue's draining with Speed Force energy when he tried to absorb/drain Wally's speed after the latter eclipsed light speed.
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I'm not scaling Barry and Wally as they have different levels of connection to the Speed Force, but Wally's feat among a plethora of statements from characters, narrators, and text boxes, demonstrates the mechanics of the Speed Force as a force of the universe. It is consistently boundless and immutable. For Leonard to successfully depower any Flash even just momentarily with the Cold Gun and prevent him from breaking out of ice (something he shattered on the previous page) is insane, especially because it showcases his tech's capabilities to absorb, nullify, or disturb even infinite energy sources that span DC's entire cosmology.
Offensively, one of the easiest and most lethal things Angela can do in conjunction with this is spread her airborne particle nanites through the battlefield. These nanobots propel a web of knives that can "slip between atoms" which she uses to tear apart the Gamorran mass-produced supersoldiers into literal nothingness. This implies destruction on a sub-atomic level.
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With the clones and Angela being part planet herself, the entire battlefield itself can now instantly rend you into elementary particles as soon as the match begins once you spawn in completely frozen and unable to do anything.
The Tools
My 1 hour of prep anywhere will take place in the Baxter Building. Even with Angela being a self-sufficient unlimited technological resource depository, it lends some credence to my argument and use of Reed's intelligence to have it occur in his labs. Here are some of the following weapons that will be mass-produced by all 50 clones and shared between each member of my team:
This is just to start, a list of everything they'd be able to prepare here would of course be exhausting. I'll be introducing more stuff as the debate goes on.
The Vanguard
Even basic human-level fodder would be dangerous for your team when armed with the equipment that Angela is providing them with. Psycho-Man has his own lethal technology which can be mass-produced, but I'll let him retain his individuality for the hell of it. Parasite meanwhile will just become an unassailable grunt.
Regarding strength, speed, durability, and overall power, Spawn lies at the absolute limits of this tournament. A major turning point in his character arc and timeline of power was when he became the King of Hell, which he achieved after dethroning the previous Hell King Malbolgia and inheriting his power.
Spawn's speed is a bit trickier because most of the best speed feats in the verse obey "the rule of cool" in the sense that they're absurdist in nature and generally hard to quantify, but you know they're impossibly fast (like this). Here Angela implies that she needs at least 100 light years to fight unimpeded which is a good baseline for something with numbers. And it's definitely about her combat speed as she was explicitly fighting while zipping across those distances. This should be easily believable anyway considering she fought the Argus storm that was tearing through space at MFTL speeds, eating planet after planet until she stopped it from reaching Earth.
I'll wrap this up by touching on hax. Now Spawn has too much hax to list, so I'll focus on things he's likely to use the most as my win conditions. Most notably as the King of Hell his soul manipulation scales above Urizen, whose soul attacks he also resisted. Urizen can consume the souls of entire worlds and his presence alone can inspire madness and destroy souls.
But more than his win conditions are your lack of them, as Spawn is not only unkillable in every sense of the word, but his hax resistance makes him completely untouchable to any character in this tourney if they're argued within rules. I'm sure he's not the only one, but he should be among the most blatant. He's able to resist reality warping at a high enough level that I would argue it is blanket hax resistance. Remember the Dimensional Lance that forcibly casts you to lower planes of existence and dimensionality? Yeah, Spawn was able to come back from that, climbing back from a lower reality in a way that immunized him from the standard configuration of reality, which made him invulnerable to the laws that governed Paradise so that angel weapons stopped working on him. The nature of his existence is fundamentally out of sync with the underlying abstract concepts of higher planes and dimensions than even our 3D world. Even while Spawn was actively using the Lance, there was still no record or trace of him OR the Lance ever existing. Also, he's immortal in every incarnation and has reality-warping resistance since his every version. (But I only argue it as blanket hax resistance once it's clear that their resistance is contingent on the nature of their character being conceptually distinct and immutable from any aspect of reality.)
Summary
I won't include counters in my opener as I wrote this concurrently and I also want to give you a chance to revise any of your plans. I supplied a lot of information to process even though I limited the feats to basic introductions and didn't do a deep dive into any character. That's just the nature of these things I guess. To recap:
Angela creates 50 clones. One drop of blood from one individual Angela stores enough nanites to fuse with an entire planet and sustain the corresponding amount of technological and biological mass. Reproducing enough weapons here with Reed Richard's brainpower is light work.
The weapons and items that will be reproduced for each member of my time are:
Once they're all equipped, the Cold Waves will be activated, completely negating thermodynamic activity for everything that isn't a member of my team protecting negative radiation. The black hole Cold Guns that can disrupt infinite energy sources will be fired on top of this.
Psycho Man's shrink ray can reduce you to non-existence essentially, and his Control Box will mentally dominate you assuming the Ultron Virus doesn't get to you first.
Kang's armor not only makes us immune to any time manip shenanigans but it has a host of offensive capabilities that I will discuss in my next post.
The Universal Entropy Gun should also be guaranteed one-shots, and the energy corruption can operate in tandem with the anti-matter gun psychic neutralization.
The Actuality Shell should provide completely invulnerable protection to all attacks. Assuming you can get past the Cold Field and inertia/energy drain from Parasite.
Spawn will be vaporizing your souls and releasing star-busting FTL attacks from the word "go". The countless microscopic anti-matter bombs should also aid in the complete disruption of any offensive game plan you have.
This is all without summons or Item Retrieval. Best of luck!
Okay, a bit overdue, but let’s get to these counters.
Since we haven’t started any actual battle discussion, I’m just going to address your general strategy, and how it impacts the match.
Prep/Engineer/Cold
For the most part I think your prep is fair and fits with what your characters can do, but some things I need help with logically.
Anti Matter Bombs: Wouldn’t these kill your team too? The only people who wouldn’t die from this would be Tempo and Synch because they can react fast enough due to their perks.
Anti Matter and Entropy Gun: Scans aren’t working ftr but I know what these are so I can address them anyway. Both of these are reliant on my team getting hit by them, which is unlikely to happen.
Even base Tempo can slow point blank explosions and energy, here she has significantly more speed and the foresight of the attack that happened due to our chronoskimming in prep.
If any of this comes close to touching anyone on my team, she/Synch can redirect them at your team, giving us another way to ensure victory.
Once they're all equipped, the Cold Waves will be activated, completely negating thermodynamic activity for everything that isn't a member of my team protecting negative radiation. The black hole Cold Guns that can disrupt infinite energy sources will be fired on top of this.
I mean, this is good but it doesn’t really have any bearing on anyone in this match. No one on my team is engaging in any CQC. The only things that are coming at your are projectile attacks, notably the core of the sun, which is way too intense for Cold’s tools to handle. Although he did beat Heatwave, that’s not the same level (or even the same type) of heat we’re dealing with here, especially when they’re amplified by lightspeed.
Kang's armor not only makes us immune to any time manip shenanigans but it has a host of offensive capabilities that I will discuss in my next post.
My team isn’t using offensive time manipulation, so this aspect doesn’t really matter.
The Actuality Shell should provide completely invulnerable protection to all attacks. Assuming you can get past the Cold Field and inertia/energy drain from Parasite.
I genuinely might have missed something, but how do you have all of Doom’s tech again?
Regardless, the Actuality Shell was used twice (to my knowledge) in the entire 60+ year history of Doom. We have no idea how much time it’d take to make this, nor if it’s something that can be readily made outside of Latveria.
Psycho Man
We can very easily BFR the Control Box into the sun and make this entire section a non factor.
Parasite/Spawn
The only person he can absorb from your team is Spawn (I don’t see any merit to him being able to absorb anyone on my team quickly enough for it to matter), so these Spawn counters can be applied to Parasite as well.
Our scaling begins with Spawn's flagship feat of killing Malbolgia within his realm and unleashing a war cry that shook all the circles of Hell and was heard across creation. This was done in a moment of rage after Malbolgia killed Angela, who was unable to put him down with her Dimensional Lance, allowing Spawn to scale handily to both the Lance and Malbolgia.
Angela was capable of defeating the Argus and the Kron, the latter who was imprisoned inside of a star, blew it up and then went on to destroy three star systems by busting the stars and thereby erasing all the accompanying planets, which ended 400 billion lives. Angela was also capable of tanking the Kron’s lightning which is stated to be equal in power to an exploding pulsar. A pulsar is a rotating neutron star that is extremely dense and emits horrifying levels of electromagnetic radiation from its magnetic poles. The electric bolts carrying this power were stray bolts from Argus and Kron's maelstrom, a multi-light-year-wide spacetime destruction storm consisting of anti-matter and anti-life that was erasing worlds in its peripheral. To supplement the consistency, Angela is also a high-tier Angel so she scales to the likes of Angels like Abdiel who was able to outright trigger a supernova with raw power. Angela's Lance is also quite impressive. It was able to overpower the aforementioned star-level anti-space/time/matter/life/soul storm and it works by releasing a dimensional resonance that "lances" beings to lower planes of existence, which if taken literally refers to either dimensionality (turning 3D beings to 2D while depowering them) or destroys the mind/body/soul on the plane you were attacked.
Malbolgia on the other hand is cracked, he's famously stated to have delivered agony to billions of worlds and dimensions, and he could crush the Earth in his palm when partially manifesting in our reality.
This is not artistic license, we know he was tangibly present as he used his finger to drag Spawn across an entire continent just to torture him. On top of that Hell Kings have unlimited energy and are omnipresent within their realms. Malbolgia has not only shown this but Mammon, another King, has shown this as well. They're supposed to be unbeatable within their dimensions (like many other Hell-Lord archetype comic characters) so it's noteworthy.
Okay, in regards to all of this, where are Spawn’s feats? Scaling is great, but if he is not consistently doing any of this, than it’s an outlier, not his general stats.
This situation doesn’t even seem like it fits your interpretation. It more-so seems like Angela (along with Spawn during the battle) was able to significantly weaken Malebolgia with her Lance which led to Spawn being able to kill him. If anything, Spawn besting Angela during this era might be more of a relevant scaling feat.
Also, upon very minimal research, in Spawn #100, we see Malebolgia be told that he is at his lowest due to his failed attempt at merging Hell (that might not be the exact plot point, just what I gathered.)
One, this is not a standard Spawn vs. Malebolgia battle. The statement here makes it clear that it wasn’t some forgone conclusion for Spawn to be able defeat Malebolgia. He knew Spawn was going to battle Malebolgia before they battled, and was confident Spawn would win, but it’s also very safe to say that it’s because he knew Malebolgia was weakened, not because Spawn could beat an ordinary Malebolgia.
Secondly, you could take this as a moment where Spawn unlocked his “true potential” and got stronger due to his anger from Angela’s death. But this can’t be the case, because I went and read Spawn #101 - #111 and there is no mention of this, nor does his actual power seem to increase. He’s still battling people who could barely be considered mid tiers and isn’t taking them out nearly as quickly as someone who genuinely scales to a Hell God should.
Lastly, the last line of “It had to be more than luck, surely.” is the only thing here that makes me feel like it could’ve been Spawn getting a power boost rather than Malebolgia being weakened, but I cannot find anything on him getting a boost here, so I’m assuming that’s not a thing either.
So I’m asking for two things:
1. Direct scans showing Spawn having Malebolgia (or even Angela) level of stats. Ones that are not just based in scaling, but showing Spawn having active battle with people on his level and doing so consistently.
Or 2. Accurate scaling from Spawn to peak Malebolgia, showing Spawn being able to contend with Malebolgia before his attempt to merge hells.
Without either of these, Spawn seems pretty inconsistent in the stats department.
Now in terms to Spawns capabilities:
I'll wrap this up by touching on hax. Now Spawn has too much hax to list, so I'll focus on things he's likely to use the most as my win conditions. Most notably as the King of Hell his soul manipulation scales above Urizen, whose soul attacks he also resisted. Urizen can consume the souls of entire worlds and his presence alone can inspire madness and destroy souls.
Is the scaling here that because Spawn is the King of Hell he is instantly stronger than everyone else in his corner of the universe? Because I feel like that strengthens the argument that Malebolgia wasn’t at full power when Spawn defeated him, as that would go against the universe’s rules.
If there is direct scaling between Spawn and Urizen, particularly in the soul manipulation department, I’d like to see it.
Spawn also has planetary TP and omni-precognition, including a penance stare type of ability that makes you experience the pain of all your victims, driving you to insanity and forcing you to commit suicide. Or he can simply connect you to the pain of Hell (keep in mind Hell is infinite). And I don't think your matter manip immunity would stop his basic Necroplasm/Hellfire blasts which destroy you on the atomic level and also burn away your soul into nothingness
These are all somewhat under the same sphere as my “You can’t hit us” argument earlier, but for some fortitude, I would like to see scans of Spawn battling telepathically with someone. A lot of his TP is on normal people going to hell (or related to hell in someway), which is very different from consistent telepathic battle. Planetary telepathy is not that impressive if you can only do so passively and not maintain that level of ability in combat.
He's able to resist reality warping at a high enough level that I would argue it is blanket hax resistance. Remember the Dimensional Lance that forcibly casts you to lower planes of existence and dimensionality? Yeah, Spawn was able to come back from that, climbing back from a lower reality in a way that immunized him from the standard configuration of reality, which made him invulnerable to the laws that governed Paradise so that angel weapons stopped working on him.
I’m pretty sure it’s being implied in the last scan that it’s the lance doing the reality resistance/warping and not him. If it is him, he’s warping reality to resist reality which isn’t allowed here, so this is a moot point.
The nature of his existence is fundamentally out of sync with the underlying abstract concepts of higher planes and dimensions than even our 3D world. Even while Spawn was actively using the Lance, there was still no record or trace of him OR the Lance ever existing. Also, he's immortal in every incarnation and has reality-warping resistance since his every version. (But I only argue it as blanket hax resistance once it's clear that their resistance is contingent on the nature of their character being conceptually distinct and immutable from any aspect of reality.)
These links aren’t working so I can’t fully comment on this, but this still feels like a huge reach. It seems like his reality warping resistance is dependent on the Lance, and once again, if not, he’s warping reality. It’s not blanket hax resistance it’s just him making it not work via reality warping. I’d need more proof before I can concede to him being this undying being.
Spawn will be vaporizing your souls and releasing star-busting FTL attacks from the word "go". The countless microscopic anti-matter bombs should also aid in the complete disruption of any offensive game plan you have.
How is he throwing out star busting FTL’s? I don’t see that mentioned in his section. Already addressed Spawn and the anti matter bombs otherwise.
To conclude, I still have several win conditions:
1. BFR into the Sun
2. Sun Core Shower
3. Telepathic Assault
4. Reversal Attacks
5. Synch Power Equalization
While also having infinite time reversal with Synch and Tempo, and also the inherent advantage of being able to view the battle in prep, where we gain foresight into everything your team plans to do.
We are not only able to plan, but we’re able to plan counters for your counters before you even attack. Most of your win conditions involve my team being caught off guard or not prepared for your team, yet we are the exact opposite of that.
@youngjustice:I went back and fixed most of the broken links in my opener, but I'll also be reposting relevant feats here to make for an easier reading experience. Still, if there's something important you need to be referenced, don't hesitate to ask.
Streamlining
I'm going to simplify my prep to increase plausibility and effectiveness. Even though my team is capable of creating or accessing almost anything, there's still only an hour to work with, and I think trying to do too much can hurt rather than help. I don't want this to be a complex or convoluted battle involving too many moving parts or factors.
Therefore, I'll focus on constructing weapons, items, and equipment that my characters have actually produced before or should be able to, namely Captain Cold's paraphernalia and Reed Richard's inventions. With Angela's 50 clones working simultaneously, her inherent ability to conjure constructs and any technology she understands allows me to mass produce most tools and distribute them among my team within the allotted timeframe. Against your team specifically, I think the most potent equipment I'll use here is Kang the Conqueror's Armor.
Reed Richards has created an authentic Kang Armor in a matter of minutes with his daughter Valeria called the Scion Suit. She outright states that they "cobbled it together" implying a lack of serious effort or time invested into it. Valeria is nearly as smart as Reed so it was functionally two Reed-level characters making it, but I have 50 Engineer clones with his brainpower, so that's not an issue. The Scion Suit is as potent and capable as any version of any real Kang armor. Using the suit, Reed impersonated Kang and completely fooled the entire Council of Kangs into thinking he was their oldest and most powerful version. Even the Time Variance Authority whose job is to keep watch over every timeline and annul paradoxes (similar to Watchers) identified Scion as “the same being” as all the other Kang incarnations.
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Not only that, but Reed demonstrated the time manipulation capabilities of the suit to be superior or at least on par with the other Kangs, seeing as he followed each of them into different points of the FF timeline and sabotaged their missions while simultaneously cloaking himself from them (an insane feat considering their time-anomaly detection, scouring, and cloaking abilities). Futhermore, Reed confirms that the Limbo they were in, Neverspace, was "keyed to their genetic code" (referring to Kang) which normally bars entry from outsiders. This means the suit altered Reed's genetic code to match Kang/Immortus/Nathaniel Richards upon his initial entry before he started recruiting the time-displaced FF to break in; so with the suit on he literally was Kang down to the DNA.
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We've seen with Hank Pym that briefly donning a piece of Kang's armor made him as knowledgeable as Kang to the point where he considered them the same person. He states the tech "phases them together".
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By every metric of evidence, Reed is clearly capable of creating the OG Kang armor or a version of it that is equally as strong and functionally the same. With Angela's abilities, a Kang suit is instantly produced for each member of my team including her clones. These make the Chronal Field bracelets obsolete but that's fine. Even with time manipulation very limited here, these suits allow even the weakest member of my team to beat yours. Particularly because so much of your strategy depends on future sight, slowing down time, time traveling, BFR and other tactics. All of this is rendered completely ineffective by the Kang suits.
And even then the Scion suit was able to hide from other Kang's, who similarly have the ability to detect anything or access any information that exists within time, as seen here when Kang was able to forcefully take the Crystal Sphere that Vision was hiding from him. I should be undetectable and untouchable throughout every point in time, so your future sight/chronoskimming is fruitless. Your characters are now completely in the dark without knowledge and they don't have way to attack or perceive my team when the battle begins.
Counters
As soon as the battle begins, Tempo will teleport our team into the future and Rachel will chronoskim the match, allowing us to see how the battle played out. This will give us information on the oppositions team, their battle tactics, and their what we need to do/not do to succeed in this battle. Synch will use Jean Grey’s telepathy to imprint the memories of battle into my teams minds. It’s also worth noting that due to the (expected) nature of this battle, my team will know that this is a potential life threatening encounter, and after seeing the results, they will be more incentivized to act outside of moral character.
I'm completely unconvinced that Synch can use Jean's powers here. His abilities are stated and shown to work via his "synchronistic aura" which is an energy field surrounding his physical body that allows him to to become "genetically in synch" or copy the abilities of mutants who are in close proximity. (It's no longer limited to mutants however). In other words, he's essentially just Parasite. He can only copy the powers of people that are nearby and the connections usually fade after some time, even though he's gotten stronger and can potentially retain some abilities. But Jean Grey is not shown to be one of them. As a matter of fact, the only example of Synch using Jean's powers that you provided was when she was quite literally sitting right in front of him:
You claimed their connection is constant but I have seen nothing proving this, and based on my research, he's never replicated or accessed her telepathy remotely, ever. Jean is not present in this fight and you're not summoning her, so your attempt to scale him is unsuccessful.
After we get a full analysis of the match, we will teleport back to the battle. Given that we’ll now know your strategy, it’ll be easier to combat anything your team does. Additionally, Synch and Tempo’s light speed advantage gives us even more advantage here. As soon as we’re back on the field, Synch will link to Manifold and create dozens ofmini projectiles with the heat of the sunand hurl them down upon your team. In unison, Tempo will put the projectiles through a time bubble to speed them up (similar to what she did to Rogue in her character section, just offensively), making them go at near instantaneous speeds. These are dozens of literal sun pieces and they’ll be coming at your team within seconds of battle start, creating a nice opener for the rest of my teams attack (if it doesn’t outright kill most of your team.)
I think you've neglected to realize that you're spawning into the Cold Field, so you need to prove that your characters can move or think once they're already frozen. But any energy projectiles you want to use can simply be absorbed, even if Manifold's space manipulation is operational when he's frozen in stasis and suspended animation. They can be absorbed by Parasite who with Superman's kryptonian physiology/powers would just be massively amped from any contact with the Sun. Or by Psycho Man who can drain the Power Cosmic out of Surfer. All of my characters are equipped with Kang's armor which is outfitted with a Tachyon Field that BFRs any projectiles into the future, as well as a force screen that absorbs energy amping the suit.
Kang can also BFR attacks into the past, he's specifically threatened to redirect the energies of Black Bolt to the moment of his birth.
So any attacks that you use that we don't absorb can simply be time jumped, either to the future or the moment you're born, killing you as soon as you're conceived.
Selene and Rachel will instantly begin the telepathic assault, and due to the knowledge of the battle prior, they will know to instantly go for your non telepaths (everyone but Spawn.) Once they're taken out, they'll focus on Spawn. He would face a similar fate to the others, as the sheer combined efforts of Selene, Rachel, and the power of a peak Jean Grey far outclasses anything Spawn has handled before.
Until you actually prove that Synch can use "the power of a peak Jean Grey" at will, the only telepaths that need to be addressed on your team are Selene and Rachel (and by extension Synch). I'd argue that Psycho Man without the Control Box is an equally capable telepath as Rachel barring her high-ends and Phoenix stuff. With the Control Box, (the technology of which he's coded into his suit, so the actual box isn't needed) he's much better than her. The best feats that you've shown for her are her psi-bolts being compared to Xavier's and destroying an astral projection of his. Xavier has much more powerful techniques that Psi-Bolts or astral projections, neither of which are relevant attacks here. Cable has better scaling than Rachel and Psycho Man has shut him down twice by manipulating his emotions.
The absolute weakest versions of Cable ever were able to resist D'Spayre's fear inducement, which is pretty significant considering on multiple occasions D'Spayre's mere words have subtly influenced Dr. Strange to the brink of suicide. But more importantly, D'Spayre was also able to trap Phoenix Rachel Summers (albeit not at her peak, but stronger than the version you have here) in an a mental illusions that made her relive all her worst fears and she was "powerless to stop it". The illusion left her completely defeated, and this was Phoenix Rachel, a stronger version of the same character that you have.
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Beyond that, Rachel (who is Cable's sister btw) has outright admitted inferiority to Cable's telepathic potential.
Your scaling Rachel to Xavier doesn't matter. Through sheer telepathic skill and precision, even when weakened Cable been able to match the likes of Jean, Xavier, Nate and Onslaught who I think most would agree are the strongest Marvel telepaths (besides like, Legion and Franklin or whatever) and the next tier of telepaths after him would include Rachel, Emma, Psylocke, Quentin, Stryfe, etc. Cable has the finesse and precision in terms of TP application and skill to perform feats like bypassing Onslaught's telepathic shields/psi-blocks and Hulk's own immense TP resistance (who was being mind-controlled by Onslaught at the time) and depowering him to Grey Hulk, after which he threatened to "peel his mind like an orange", and he literally chose not to just to protect him.
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Pretty insane feat all things considered, as pages after this Cable's heart stopped and he collapsed in a deathly state; if it wasn't for Storm's emergency resuscitation, it's likely that the TO virus would've killed him then.
Simply expending little effort and diverting energy away to Hulk caused him to lose hold over the virus in that moment; that's how weakened he was. And yet he overpowered Hulk's mind and Onslaught's shields while holding back. And in case you need a reminder, Onslaught is Xavier fused with Magneto so the scaling you used to Xavier is moot.
The amount of endurance and exhaustion Cable was working through is even more impressive when you recollect that a few issues before this (Cable vol. 1 #31), Cable had an all-out battle with an out-of-control Nate Grey. He actually managed to push Nate to the absolute limits of his power to where he threatened to passively and inadvertently destroy minds all across the planet. Nate eventually exerted himself too much that his body couldn't contain his power and he burned out and collapsed. And yet Cable showed the skill and refined ability to repair the broken mind of Nate Grey and restore him after their battle made his mind fizzle out. Furthermore, at this stage in this arc Cable was pretty much running on fumes, it was even commented on that the virus was about to kill him, so you can only imagine the level of control Cable had to have in order to be the last one standing after taking the brunt of Nate's power, and still having the energy leftover to fix his mind and face Onslaught after...
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These two feats are nothing short of ridiculous and Cable has many showings of even greater control, accuracy and raw power. For Psycho Man to overwhelm Cable's mind not just once but twice on two separate encounters through his empathic emotional manipulation via Control Box is enough for me to say that it'd work on Rachel, Selene, and Synch here without issues. Psycho Man's empathic manipulation can cause your team to hate each other and attack each other, or be completely paralyzed by fear, or drive them to suicide.
I’m assuming that you will be creating summons due to your team and perks, and if Manifold sees them, he will automatically teleport them into the sun.
BFR is just not working against any member of my team. Plus they will all be spatiotemporally intangible. Kang can travel anywhere through space and time. Spawn can teleport and open portals. The Engineer can use the Carrier's doors. So on and so forth.
What's more is Kang's armor grants a specific counter to that. He noticed that Vision was drawing his power from the rays of the Sun so he threatened to BFR him to before the first stars in the universe were born.
Considering my future sight actually works here (yours doesn't because we can cloak ourselves from beings with greater detection than you) I would have seen your dependence on the Sun and completely deprived you of access to one by time jumping you to before they existed.
Spawn will obviously be a problem in general, but I do feel confident that that beginning sun assault will weaken him significantly, and give our team time to take out the others. It’s also very likely that the rest of your team is dead after that initial assault, which means that this essentially becomes my team against Spawn.
...Why on Earth would a character that can no-sell star level attacks be weakened by being thrown into the Sun? I need to understand your thought process here. Spawn is tougher than characters that have actually tanked supernovas and exploding pulsars, this was never working on him.
In that case, I think we have a fairly clear win. Synch can adopt Spawn’s own powers, and while he won’t have the skill initially to match Spawn one for one, his telepathy can download Spawn’s knowledge in less than a second. Additionally, as shown earlier, he will become Spawn’s better due to the nature of his ability, allowing him to harness Spawn’s ability slightly more than the limit of God Spawn here.
Power copying is banned. It's only allowed between members of your team. Synch can not copy Spawn's powers. Otherwise there's nothing stopping Parasite from absorbing the powers of your entire team which would simultaneously leave them powerless.
An additional important note, if at any point we think that we are losing, Tempo can reset my entire team to match start.
If she wants to pull time back, she can without much effort (and incredibly quickly, with her boost.) This is a battle that we can do over, and over, and over again. Each time, we can time jump to recap (for clarity, Tempo retains memories throughout time jumps, which we can share with the team via telepathy) the events of the battle if we failed, and learn how to prevent them. As long as Tempo or Synch lives, they will be able to prevent the defeat of our team indefinitely.
All five members of my team have been turned into Kang's here in addition to the endless supply of clones we can create by pulling from the timestream (meaning even if one gets destroyed they'll be replaced). So we can trap your entire team in a stasis field capable of shutting off the Time Gem. Tempo wouldn't be able to reset or keep trying to run away after that.
Rebuttals
For the most part I think your prep is fair and fits with what your characters can do, but some things I need help with logically.
Anti Matter Bombs: Wouldn’t these kill your team too? The only people who wouldn’t die from this would be Tempo and Synch because they can react fast enough due to their perks.
Anti Matter and Entropy Gun: Scans aren’t working ftr but I know what these are so I can address them anyway. Both of these are reliant on my team getting hit by them, which is unlikely to happen.
Even base Tempo can slow point blank explosions and energy, here she has significantly more speed and the foresight of the attack that happened due to our chronoskimming in prep.
If any of this comes close to touching anyone on my team, she/Synch can redirect them at your team, giving us another way to ensure victory.
So you concede that the anti-matter bombs would kill everyone on your team besides Tempo and Synch at the start? My team will be protected by the Actuality Shell and layers of intangibility. We can even move outside the timestream. Also can I ask, what are Tempo and Synch supposed to accomplish by themselves? Synch is pretty much useless because he can't copy my powers, and Tempo is sorely outclassed in time manipulation. You don't have any win conditions without Manifold and Rachel and I have a million different ways to kill you. Spawn can just blitz and one-shot them both.
My team isn’t using offensive time manipulation, so this aspect doesn’t really matter.
You still proposed slowing down our attacks as you did above with slowing energy and explosions. Kang can easily reverse that. He's capable of slowing down and speeding up time to a much greater degree than Tempo.
I genuinely might have missed something, but how do you have all of Doom’s tech again?
Regardless, the Actuality Shell was used twice (to my knowledge) in the entire 60+ year history of Doom. We have no idea how much time it’d take to make this, nor if it’s something that can be readily made outside of Latveria.
I didn't argue having "all" of Doom's tech, just the Actuality Shell. Reed is very familiar with Latveria so this shouldn't be a stretch. He quite literally has completely taken over Latveria before and all of its tech/systems.
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The amount of time it takes to make any piece of tech here is irrelevant because The Engineer's power is to create any technological construct immediately due to her nanites, which she has an unlimited source of. Think of her as a technopath Green Lantern.
We can very easily BFR the Control Box into the sun and make this entire section a non factor.
And I can just as easily get it back. Kang literally has the ability to summon directly into his hands any weapon throughout all of time. He was able to summon into his hands a weapon that Iron Man hadn't even built yet, one that he had only just thought to build and was going to make in an alternate future.
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He can casually summon things like Destroyer Armor, Ultron, Eye of Agamotto, Iron Man suits, Cap's shield, Mjolnir, and even Cosmic Cubes.
Plus the technology of the Control Box was coded directly into Psycho Man's suit as I showed earlier, so the box isn't even necessary.
Okay, in regards to all of this, where are Spawn’s feats? Scaling is great, but if he is not consistently doing any of this, than it’s an outlier, not his general stats.
I don't know how to reply to this. This makes no sense. Spawn is consistently as strong as the characters I've scaled him too, namely Angela. And the version I'm using is Hell King Spawn, who is named as such because he inherited Malebolgia's power and throne as the Hell King. The position was temporary but the power wasn't, and I have a Composite Spawn here.
Also, upon very minimal research, in Spawn #100, we see Malebolgia be told that he is at his lowest due to his failed attempt at merging Hell (that might not be the exact plot point, just what I gathered.)
This is true, but it's not relevant as again, Spawn inherited the Throne of Hell and became the new Hell King after Malebolgia died, which gave him all of his power.
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Spawn's power level obviously fluctuates throughout the many story arcs he has and there's different versions of him, but I have a composite Spawn (with the exception of his universal versions) so this is a pointless discussion.
So I’m asking for two things:
1. Direct scans showing Spawn having Malebolgia (or even Angela) level of stats. Ones that are not just based in scaling, but showing Spawn having active battle with people on his level and doing so consistently.
Or 2. Accurate scaling from Spawn to peak Malebolgia, showing Spawn being able to contend with Malebolgia before his attempt to merge hells.
Without either of these, Spawn seems pretty inconsistent in the stats department.
How is he throwing out star busting FTL’s? I don’t see that mentioned in his section. Already addressed Spawn and the anti matter bombs otherwise.
It was mostly scaling to Angela but I've shown that Spawn is at the limits in speed and power. They can actively fight across light years in moments and have repeatedly tanked and output star level power.
To conclude, I still have several win conditions:
1. BFR into the Sun
2. Sun Core Shower
3. Telepathic Assault
4. Reversal Attacks
5. Synch Power Equalization
While also having infinite time reversal with Synch and Tempo, and also the inherent advantage of being able to view the battle in prep, where we gain foresight into everything your team plans to do.
None of this is going to work. First you need to prove that you have a way to detect me and interact with me. My characters can hide themself from time. Characters like Future Thanos and The Watchers can't Kang see if he wishes to remain unseen, and the Watcher in particular can see the past, present, and countless futures, alternate realities, timelines, universes etc. and that version of Thanos was all-powerful. Your future sight and chronoskimming won't work, and when the battle starts we'll also be invisible and intangible to you.
Beyond that you literally conceded that the Anti-Matter bombs would kill everyone on your team besides Tempo and Synch, who can prompty be blitzed and one-shotted by Spawn alone. Or have their souls destroyed, or have their atoms destroyed. Everything else I've brought to the table is just overkill at this point.
Conclusion
Valiant effort but I don't see a way for you to win here.
You need to prove you can see and interact with any member of my team before we can even begin discussing your odds in this battle in earnest.
Your only counters to any of my attacks have been slowing them down or running away. The Anti-Matter Gun that shut down Franklin Richards, Entropy Gun that one-shot a Mad Celestial by corrupting its energy with entropy, and Psycho Man's Shrink Ray that reduced a whole universe down to sub-atomic size are all viable attacks because slowing them down isn't possible when my team is wearing Kang armors and can prevent that.
Speaking of the armors which also hide us from you, another win condition is simply trapping you in a stasis prism like Kang did to the Time Gem.
Rachel is a good telepath but she gets shut down by Psycho Man and the Control Box based on her relativity to Cable and Surfer in mental resistance.
BFR'ing my team is pointless because we can all teleport and BFR you likewise.
None of your hax should even be capable of working because my team is protected by the Actuality Shell which resisted Nightmare turning the universe into a... well, nightmare.
You're spawning into the Cold Field which you don't seem to have a counter too either. Characters with resistance to flash freezing can't counter it once frozen and you need to be as fast as the Flash to even barely move.
Engineer's nanites have also permeated the atmosphere and they can shred you apart on the atomic level as soon as you spawn in.
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Spawn can also destroy your souls, seal you, transmute you, beat you to death, etc.
@higherpower: Wow I did not realize you replied so quick, I’m just seeing this today lol. Going to try to rush a post out today, but if not it’ll be up on Monday (my next off day), excited to close this up.
@higherpower: Wow I did not realize you replied so quick, I’m just seeing this today lol. Going to try to rush a post out today, but if not it’ll be up on Monday (my next off day), excited to close this up.
Reed Richards has created an authentic Kang Armor in a matter of minutes with his daughter Valeria called the Scion Suit. She outright states that they "cobbled it together" implying a lack of serious effort or time invested into it. Valeria is nearly as smart as Reed so it was functionally two Reed-level characters making it, but I have 50 Engineer clones with his brainpower, so that's not an issue. Using the suit, Reed impersonated Kang and completely fooled the entire Council of Kangs into thinking he was their oldest and most powerful version. Even the Time Variance Authority whose job is to keep watch over every timeline and annul paradoxes (similar to Watchers) identified Scion as “the same being” as all the other Kang incarnations.
You’re purposely leaving out the very big point that a large reason Reed was capable of getting away with any of this was because Reed and Kang share DNA, not due to the Scion suit being so impossible to detect.
Additionally:
The Scion Suit is as potent and capable as any version of any real Kang armor.
Says who? The Scion armor only existed for one issue (Fantastic Four 2018 #35) in the entirety of comics and all it did in that issue was travel through time. Even when Reed did his huge reveal, he took the armor off in favor of fighting the Kang’s with his elasticity. There is no proof that this armor has any battle potential, much less that it’d do 95% of the things you are claiming.
“By every metric of evidence, Reed is clearly capable of creating the OG Kang armor or a version of it that is equally as strong and functionally the same. With Angela's abilities, a Kang suit is instantly produced for each member of my team including her clones. These make the Chronal Field bracelets obsolete but that's fine. Even with time manipulation very limited here, these suits allow even the weakest member of my team to beat yours. Particularly because so much of your strategy depends on future sight, slowing down time, time traveling, BFR and other tactics. All of this is rendered completely ineffective by the Kang suits.”
I don’t really see any evidence that they can stop forceful time travel? Although I’m not really sure that them being able to helps your team. If we can’t force them back through time, than they just stay stuck in the future and my team gets a reprieve until time catches up to the present.
Or time folds on itself and we time travel into the actual former battle with duplicates of both your team and my team, which leads to a likely infinite loop. So for the sake of the battle, I’m assuming traveling the past doesn’t create dupes.
Or of course your team could decide to follow us into the past (if you prove you can), which just leads us into the fight again (but my team being allowed that brief respite.)
Kang's armor can make the wearer undetectable to nigh-omniscient characters with past, present, and future sight. He uses temporal displacement and conceals himself within "the hidden corridors of time", known only to him, and its enabled him to successfully hide from the Watchers (whose capabilities I went over) as well as allowed Eros to hide from Future Omniscienct Thanos.
And even then the Scion suit was able to hide from other Kang's, who similarly have the ability to detect anything or access any information that exists within time, as seen here when Kang was able to forcefully take the Crystal Sphere that Vision was hiding from him. I should be undetectable and untouchable throughout every point in time, so your future sight/chronoskimming is fruitless. Your characters are now completely in the dark without knowledge and they don't have way to attack or perceive my team when the battle begins.
This is Kang (or his armor) actively hiding and not being on the same plane as the time reality he’s hiding from. If you want to attack me, you HAVE to be on this plane. You cannot have your cake and eat it too with his armor. If you want to hide out the entire match, sure this might work. But this entire aspect falls apart the second you realize that this is something that must be effectively in a battle.
Even in your own scans, Starfox has to slip back into the timeline to simply touch Thanos. What makes your think that this undetectability will be able to be used during this active in battle?
While you might be able to create a Kang like armor, saying that it will be able to do any of the things you’re claiming is the hugest reach you’ve made here. The only argument you’ve made that might hold water is that the armor can aid in time manipulation defense (undetectability) but that is put off by the fact that you have no combat feats of this (and have feats that would prove that this is something that can’t happen in combat.)
I'm completely unconvinced that Synch can use Jean's powers here. His abilities are stated and shown to work via his "synchronistic aura" which is an energy field surrounding his physical body that allows him to to become "genetically in synch" or copy the abilities of mutants who are in close proximity. (It's no longer limited to mutants however). In other words, he's essentially just Parasite. He can only copy the powers of people that are nearby and the connections usually fade after some time, even though he's gotten stronger and can potentially retain some abilities. But Jean Grey is not shown to be one of them. As a matter of fact, the only example of Synch using Jean's powers that you provided was when she was quite literally sitting right in front of him:
You claimed their connection is constant but I have seen nothing proving this, and based on my research, he's never replicated or accessed her telepathy remotely, ever. Jean is not present in this fight and you're not summoning her, so your attempt to scale him is unsuccessful.
No.
To be fair, I got too busy to add in those Synch scans into my initial post so I can’t entirely blame you for not getting how incorrect you are here, but still. There is no way you actually researched Synch at all because since his revival his powers have been significantly upgraded.
In terms of his general ability to remote power copy, this scan answers your question.
After being resurrected on Krakoa, his powers increased to be able to synch with anyone from muscle memory. The only caveat being that it slowly drains his overall life force, but that aspect doesn’t matter in this confined battle.
When it comes to his Jean synching specifically, there’s a lot of consistent evidence of this, but he actually did something quite insane recently that I’d like to highlight. This section has heavy spoilers for the current state of X Men comics, so warning:
I think you've neglected to realize that you're spawning into the Cold Field, so you need to prove that your characters can move or think once they're already frozen. But any energy projectiles you want to use can simply be absorbed, even if Manifold's space manipulation is operational when he's frozen in stasis and suspended animation.
Okay I see you have not touched on the fact that the sun projectiles would negate the cold field, just want to note that.
Additionally, in all of these scans you’ve shown of it, the cold field is shown to slow considerably, but not actually freeze completely. There is no reason Manifold can’t teleport us out of it and move further away, where we can continue our attack as planned.
Although none of this really matters because you don’t have battlefield prep. The cold field feats all show/imply battlefield prep from Captain Cold which you don’t have here. You’d have to argue that the cold fields can go up before my team moves from the area to avoid them (which we’ll know due to prep.) With Synch and Tempo’s speed boost, I don’t really think it’s logical for these to be active before my team gets their feet off the ground.
They can be absorbed by Parasite who with Superman's kryptonian physiology/powers would just be massively amped from any contact with the Sun.
Huh? How does he have Krptonian physiology? This is something you’ve never brought up before, nor does it even make sense with Parasite’s power set. You’d have to have a Krptonian on your side for this to matter.
Or by Psycho Man who can drain the Power Cosmic out of Surfer.
He can’t react fast enough to these projectiles to do this (even if he had his control box.)
All of my characters are equipped with Kang's armor which is outfitted with a Tachyon Field that BFRs any projectiles into the future, as well as a force screen that absorbs energy amping the suit.
This would be a good defense if you actually had Kang’s armor and not a knockoff with no combat feats or proof that it equates to Kang's actual armor.
Kang can also BFR attacks into the past, he's specifically threatened to redirect the energies of Black Bolt to the moment of his birth.
So any attacks that you use that we don't absorb can simply be time jumped, either to the future or the moment you're born, killing you as soon as you're conceived.
Fairly certain the latter would be against the rules, but even if we are able to travel in time before the battle, most members on your team don’t kill children, nor would they idly let that happen.
In terms of the former, with Synch’s speed he can use Manifold’s portals to send them right back at you.
Although once again, you have no proof of the Scion armor being able to do this, so it really doesn’t matter all too much.
Until you actually prove that Synch can use "the power of a peak Jean Grey" at will, the only telepaths that need to be addressed on your team are Selene and Rachel (and by extension Synch). I'd argue that Psycho Man without the Control Box is an equally capable telepath as Rachel barring her high-ends and Phoenix stuff. With the Control Box, (the technology of which he's coded into his suit, so the actual box isn't needed) he's much better than her. The best feats that you've shown for her are her psi-bolts being compared to Xavier's and destroying an astral projection of his. Xavier has much more powerful techniques that Psi-Bolts or astral projections, neither of which are relevant attacks here. Cable has better scaling than Rachel and Psycho Man has shut him down twice by manipulating his emotions.
The absolute weakest versions of Cable ever were able to resist D'Spayre's fear inducement, which is pretty significant considering on multiple occasions D'Spayre's mere words have subtly influenced Dr. Strange to the brink of suicide. But more importantly, D'Spayre was also able to trap Phoenix Rachel Summers (albeit not at her peak, but stronger than the version you have here) in an a mental illusions that made her relive all her worst fears and she was "powerless to stop it". The illusion left her completely defeated, and this was Phoenix Rachel, a stronger version of the same character that you have.
Peak Phoenix Rachel may not be as strong as the Rachel here, but I have Rachel post power boost and Askani training, which I’d argue is stronger than her general power level while she was a Phoenix host.
When it comes to the D’Spayre fight, I’d argue that has way more to do with her mental instability at the time rather than her being weak. She fights through her trauma to defeat him in that very issue, so I think it proves that it isn’t a power issue, rather a character moment for her.
Rachel (who is Cable's sister btw) has outright admitted inferiority to Cable's telepathic potential.
Cable managed to forcibly drag the physical bodies of himself and Apocalypse into the astral plane to ambush Onslaught at the height of his power, even though Cable at this time was heavily strained and weakened from accumulated damage of previous battles and losing control of the TO virus which was destroying him. He was able to overcome the Psi-blocks of Bastion's soldiers and mind wipe them, and control their minds to leave the X-mansion which made him black out after. Overcoming telepathic/psionic shields and blocks of large groups is nothing new to him either, he was able to do that and mentally dominate warring groups from alternate/parallel timelines. He mind wiped 47 members of the Dark Sisterhood so none of them could remember anything past their 7th birthday, including all of their strongest telepaths.
Your scaling Rachel to Xavier doesn't matter. Through sheer telepathic skill and precision, even when weakened Cable been able to match the likes of Jean, Xavier, Nate and Onslaught who I think most would agree are the strongest Marvel telepaths (besides like, Legion and Franklin or whatever) and the next tier of telepaths after him would include Rachel, Emma, Psylocke, Quentin, Stryfe, etc. Cable has the finesse and precision in terms of TP application and skill to perform feats like bypassing Onslaught's telepathic shields/psi-blocks and Hulk's own immense TP resistance (who was being mind-controlled by Onslaught at the time) and depowering him to Grey Hulk, after which he threatened to "peel his mind like an orange", and he literally chose not to just to protect him.
Pretty insane feat all things considered, as pages after this Cable's heart stopped and he collapsed in a deathly state; if it wasn't for Storm's emergency resuscitation, it's likely that the TO virus would've killed him then.
Simply expending little effort and diverting energy away to Hulk caused him to lose hold over the virus in that moment; that's how weakened he was. And yet he overpowered Hulk's mind and Onslaught's shields while holding back. And in case you need a reminder, Onslaught is Xavier fused with Magneto so the scaling you used to Xavier is moot.
The amount of endurance and exhaustion Cable was working through is even more impressive when you recollect that a few issues before this (Cable vol. 1 #31), Cable had an all-out battle with an out-of-control Nate Grey. He actually managed to push Nate to the absolute limits of his power to where he threatened to passively and inadvertently destroy minds all across the planet. Nate eventually exerted himself too much that his body couldn't contain his power and he burned out and collapsed. And yet Cable showed the skill and refined ability to repair the broken mind of Nate Grey and restore him after their battle made his mind fizzle out. Furthermore, at this stage in this arc Cable was pretty much running on fumes, it was even commented on that the virus was about to kill him, so you can only imagine the level of control Cable had to have in order to be the last one standing after taking the brunt of Nate's power, and still having the energy leftover to fix his mind and face Onslaught after...
These two feats are nothing short of ridiculous and Cable has many showings of even greater control, accuracy and raw power. For Psycho Man to overwhelm Cable's mind not just once but twice on two separate encounters through his empathic emotional manipulation via Control Box is enough for me to say that it'd work on Rachel, Selene, and Synch here without issues. Psycho Man's empathic manipulation can cause your team to hate each other and attack each other, or be completely paralyzed by fear, or drive them to suicide.
I’m thankful for the mini Cable respect thread here but it truly has nothing to do with this match. Rachel giving Cable a sibling pep talk does not equate to him actually being stronger than her (much less her and every other telepath combined, as she said.)
With that being said, I do think that Rachel is in general, equal to Cable in the overall TP wheelhouse (see intro box for Rachel.)
But Rachel isn’t alone here, she’s working in unison with three other very adept telepaths. I don’t see a world where Psycho Man is able to best the three of them.
As if all that isn't enough, Reed has created telepathy-blocking helments that protected them against the X-Men telepaths anyway. Engineer can prepare those for our team. So this was never gonna work.
This is actually an important thing that might need to be discussed but the link is broken and I have spent almost 45 minutes looking for this instance and I’m unable to find it. Not saying it doesn’t exist, but if it does, I highly doubt it’s that significant as it likely was only done once and I’d presume wasn’t against the highest tier of X-Telepaths (or this wasn’t a battle feat.)
Not really considering this point since I can’t see what it is and it’s my final post.
BFR is just not working against any member of my team. Plus they will all be spatiotemporally intangible. Kang can travel anywhere through space and time. Spawn can teleport and open portals. The Engineer can use the Carrier's doors. So on and so forth.
What's more is Kang's armor grants a specific counter to that. He noticed that Vision was drawing his power from the rays of the Sun so he threatened to BFR him to before the first stars in the universe were born.
Considering my future sight actually works here (yours doesn't because we can cloak ourselves from beings with greater detection than you) I would have seen your dependence on the Sun and completely deprived you of access to one by time jumping you to before they existed.
I’ve already detailed why you don’t have Kang’s armor here, so I’ll skip that aspect of this section.
The teleporting back is a possible solution but it’d involve you surviving the BFR and having enough strength to be able to bring yourself back as you’re burning alive from the core of the sun.
Why on Earth would a character that can no-sell star level attacks be weakened by being thrown into the Sun? I need to understand your thought process here. Spawn is tougher than characters that have actually tanked supernovas and exploding pulsars, this was never working on him.
Why on earth would durability be something transferable via scaling? You keep making these claims SOLELY based on scaling with no actual evidence of Spawn being able to do this himself. When has this form of Spawn no sold a star level attack? And when I ask that, I don’t mean for you to reply that, “Well he beat this person who theoretically can send out star level attacks.”, but I’d like actual proof of this happening.
I’ll touch on this more later but I feel like you know Spawn is hugely inconsistent so you’re relying of scaling to show consistency. When in reality, he’s not even consistently battling opponents that would make him anywhere close to the level you’re debating him at. Spawn has good high ends, but they’re plagued with wonky circumstances or inconsistent follow ups that negate the impact of those high ends.
Power copying is banned. It's only allowed between members of your team. Synch can not copy Spawn's powers. Otherwise there's nothing stopping Parasite from absorbing the powers of your entire team which would simultaneously leave them powerless.
Yeah I’ll concede on that, misread the rules. Wasn’t a huge part of my strategy, just an additional positive for Synch.
Tempo has no feats on par with Kang. If this is going to turn into a time traveling mess with resets and time jumps and whatnot, it should be noted that Kang can actually harness the power of paradoxes and use them to his will, so every time you try to cheat death that way it would only empower us. Beyond that, it only took three Kangs to create a stasis prism of no-time that was capable suspending the Time Gem and leaving it inert.
All five members of my team have been turned into Kang's here in addition to the endless supply of clones we can create by pulling from the timestream (meaning even if one gets destroyed they'll be replaced). So we can trap your entire team in a stasis field capable of shutting off the Time Gem. Tempo wouldn't be able to reset or keep trying to run away after that.
No, your team has not been turned into Kang’s. You have shown the ability to at best recreate the Scion armor, which has zero combat showings and was such a non-factor that Fantastic fought Kang without it.
Outside of the fact that I have no faith in Reed’s brainpower being able to do these Kang shenanigans, it should also be stated that being Kang also requires skill. Kang is not a master of time simply because of his armor, his knowledge of time has allowed him to master it in all of its intricacies. Reed certainly has experience with time travel, but it is minuscule in comparison to Kang. He not only would have to somehow come up with the plans to create these things (why of all of the things that he could create, would he make Kang armor without full knowledge of my team?) , but he would also have to come up with the ideas, ingredients, and equipment to create these things on a whim. The Baxter Building nor Angela’s Nantes guarantee the likely very intricate materials and recipes needed to craft the things you’re claiming.
So you concede that the anti-matter bombs would kill everyone on your team besides Tempo and Synch at the start? My team will be protected by the Actuality Shell and layers of intangibility. We can even move outside the timestream. Also can I ask, what are Tempo and Synch supposed to accomplish by themselves? Synch is pretty much useless because he can't copy my powers, and Tempo is sorely outclassed in time manipulation. You don't have any win conditions without Manifold and Rachel and I have a million different ways to kill you. Spawn can just blitz and one-shot them both.
Once again, they can’t attack at battle start (which is what your intending if you want them to put up these cold fields) with the actuality shell or time intangibility (things you still can’t prove you can actually do.) You have to be intangible to interact with the current time stream (as shown by the Starfox/Thanos scan), which means you’d kill your team too.
Besides that though, Synch retains powers even after someone is dead (as detailed earlier), so them being dead doesn’t really matter. We can also just go back in time to bring them back.
You still proposed slowing down our attacks as you did above with slowing energy and explosions. Kang can easily reverse that. He's capable of slowing down and speeding up time to a much greater degree than Tempo.
Putting this in the “You should’ve just bought Kang if you wanted to use his feats” category.
I didn't argue having "all" of Doom's tech, just the Actuality Shell. Reed is very familiar with Latveria so this shouldn't be a stretch. He quite literally has completely taken over Latveria before and all of its tech/systems.
Are you genuinely implying that him hacking Latveria means he just understands how to build Doom’s tech?
I don't know how to reply to this. This makes no sense. Spawn is consistently as strong as the characters I've scaled him too, namely Angela. And the version I'm using is Hell King Spawn, who is named as such because he inherited Malebolgia's power and throne as the Hell King. The position was temporary but the power wasn't, and I have a Composite Spawn here.
But is he actually shown utilizing Malebolgia’s PEAK power which is what you’re expressing in this match? Because as I stated before, it seems like this title came with no explicitly shown power ups. He got this title and went toe to toe with mid tier enemies.
Spawn's power level obviously fluctuates throughout the many story arcs he has and there's different versions of him, but I have a composite Spawn (with the exception of his universal versions) so this is a pointless discussion.
Those are the same scans you showed before. Those are statements, I’d like to see him ACTUALLY doing these things. The fact that you still haven’t shown that is such a clear indicator that he never was shown operating at the capacity of Malebolgia. Statements mean nothing if they’re never backed up on.
The above scans should satisfy your second request. As for your first request, here's Spawn defeating Angela in their first encounter even after he was struck by her Lance. Keep in mind this was also the feat of him resisting the Lance which you critique later. So yes, he has reality warping and existence erasure resistance.
I was almost super impressed by this until I looked more into this issue and realized you are misrepresenting scans again.
In the order you put these scans in, you show this scene as if it’s a continuous moment when it’s not. The third scan in that album is from the very end of the issue, where he accidentally presses Angela’s spear. And what happens when it hits him, he’s shifted into an alternate mishmash reality for the entirety of Spawn #10. Showing that the lance indeed did at the very least warp his reality, the only thing I’ll give him here is that it didn’t completely erase him from existence (but is there any evidence that it even does that?)
A big point of contention for me outside of the misrepresentation though is that it wasn’t the blast from Angela that killed Malebolgia, it was the lance itself. If he would’ve been slashed by the lance and survived, then that’s a direct feat of him having better durability than Malebolgia. This is an entirely different function of the weapon which invalidates the point of the scaling. This is a vastly different kind of durability than what we were discussing.
It was mostly scaling to Angela but I've shown that Spawn is at the limits in speed and power. They can actively fight across light years in moments and have repeatedly tanked and output star level power.
Yeah but you haven’t though? You’ve shown some amazing Angela and peak Malebolgia feats, but absolutely no feats that put Spawn at tourney limits. And when I say absolutely none I literally mean ABSOLUTELY none, there is not one Spawn scan here (and when I say Spawn scan I mean a scan with SPAWN in it) that would put him at near tourney cap.
When you asked me for proof of Synch’s abilities, I gave you them with no fuss. I simply ask you for feats of your premiere tank doing these tourney cap level things that you claim, and you have skirted around it. You give me one set of scans and it’s a misrepresentation that doesn’t even prove the type of durability we are discussing here.
Throughout this entire debate, you have spent it focusing on characters that you don’t own. You have banked on me allowing you to theorycraft your way through this battle in a way that is illogical.
You do not have Kang. You do not have Kang’s armor, you do not have Kang’s intellect, you do not have Kang’s equipment, you do not have Kang’s resources, and you do not have Kang’s expertise. You have the brainpower of the smartest man in Marvel on your team, split into numerous bodies, and you have spent the last two posts talking about a third party. Reed has a ton of capabilities (even some related to time, he literally just “beat” Rama Tut in the most recent issue of Fantastic Four!), but you’ve barely shown his own intellect.
Spawn is not Malebolgia, nor Angela. Malebolgia at his weakest was tanking Spawn at what appeared to be his best, and it took Angela’s lance slice to take him down. Spawn is the lead character in a series that spanned three hundred issues in its title series, why is it so hard to show consistent feats of him. Matter of fact, you really don’t even have to worry about consistency too much because hes composite, but you didn’t show ANYTHING. If he has the material, why not show it in your first post instead of spending the first 4 sections of your Spawn opener on Angela and Malebolgia?
A lot of your strategy seems like it was done to counteract my time manipulation as opposed to just showing off the positive capabilities of your team. Why would your team even put that much effort into time manipulation (without have full knowledge of my team or their capabilities? You’re betting a lot on your team guessing that they’ll be fighting someone with time manipulation, which isn’t even logical given that a lot of time manipulation is banned in this tournament and I’m using very niche methods of it in my strategies.
I feel like none of my win conditions change after reading your counters and I don’t see them changing after your closer either. If you try to last minute scan dump all these feats that you should’ve sent in the last two rounds, I’d ask that voters ignore them as they were explicitly requested and not offered.
That's all from me! Enjoyed this debate (although it has assured me that I 150% do not have the work schedule to do a multi-character tournament and that I will not be doing this again for the foreseeable future if I lose.)
My final post is here. Sorry for the delay. I was subconsciously waiting for Manifold to get significant content in the Fall of the House of X (he didn't.)
@higherpower: Just to let you know, I went over my post and saw two scans were not properly working (”Rachel Power Boost” and “Askani Traning”), they’ve been fixed.
@youngjustice: I'll start by highlighting things that went unaddressed or you didn't update your counters to:
The Anti-Matter Guns, The Entropy Guns, and the Shrink Rays. Without the ability to slow them down, there are no counters to any of these as far as I'm concerned, not that I expected there to be.
The Engineer's nanites which have completely permeated the atmosphere, fused with the planet & can slip in-between your characters atoms to slice them apart on the sub-atomic level autonomously & instantly.
You outright conceded The Anti-Matter Bombs would kill your team & this concession was not reversed. You only tried to argue I'd eliminate some of my team as well via friendly fire, which I'll demonstrate is wrong.
You also neglected to post any actual cold resistance from any member of your team. Your only counter to being immediately flash frozen upon spawning is using Manifold's portals to summon energy from the Sun, something there is no evidence he can do if he's already frozen beforehand.
In other words, virtually every single primary win condition I laid out from the onset remains unchallenged. This is a very open and shut battle because you never once actually contested any of these things being accomplished during prep. You only chose to fight against the Kang stuff and Spawn. So let's talk about that.
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You’re purposely leaving out the very big point that a large reason Reed was capable of getting away with any of this was because Reed and Kang share DNA, not due to the Scion suit being so impossible to detect.
I wouldn't expect the average person to be familiar with Kang's convoluted origin story so I'll excuse your ignorance here. Kang is not a descedent of Reed Richards, which is a common misconception. As established in Fantastic Four (1984) #272-273, Kang is a descendent of the family Nathaniel Richards started with a woman named Cassandra after moving to Earth-6311. He's a distant descendent of Reed's alternate timeline half-brother* named Arthur, not him, or anything from 616.
Considering how greatly DNA is diluted through generations, the fact that Arthur is essentially his ancestor across centuries and branched off from a different timeline/future means while technically related, Kang doesn't share any DNA with Reed himself; they only have Nathaniel in common, and on completely different levels as their cousinship is many times removed (For Kang he'd have less than < 1% of Nathaniel's DNA compared to Reed's 50%). Kang reiterates and confirms this in Avengers #269.
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The Scion Suit gave Reed identical DNA to Kang, allowing him to enter Neverspace. Neverspace was keyed to Kang’s genetic code. Kang himself, not his entire bloodline. That means access is granted on the same merit as any other biometric verification, such as modern-day fingerprint scans or retina scans. Even being an immediate relative wouldn’t allow you access, much less a descendant or ancestor... this is why Immortus and the other Kangs believed that Reed was literally a version of themselves. Based on the Pym instance, that scales you to the suits capabilities.
Says who? The Scion armor only existed for one issue (Fantastic Four 2018 #35) in the entirety of comics and all it did in that issue was travel through time. Even when Reed did his huge reveal, he took the armor off in favor of fighting the Kang’s with his elasticity. There is no proof that this armor has any battle potential, much less that it’d do 95% of the things you are claiming.
"Says who" Says Kang, that's kind of the whole point.
Besides being considered their eldest version and superior to them all on the basis of the suit and sabotaging their time travels undetected, including countering/reversing the Kang's attacks with the suits time manip powers, I think what you're missing here is that the argument I'm making is Reed is *capable* of creating Kang's armor based on the combination of this feat in tandem with 1) his knowledge of Marvel Universe, 2) his other prep feats, and 3) his many encounters with Kang's technology.
Reed also clearly implies that the armor has battle potential and can perform some of Kang's abilities when he told them that he de-aged himself and Ben to children while aging up Sue and Johnny to elders, and all the Kang's believed him, because they know it's something a Kang is capable of. He obviously didn't actually kill the FF, but it means he clearly has Kang's time manipulation abilities and has the means to do this.
You're right that the Scion Suit didn't perform most of the techniques I'm arguing here, but neither did Kang himself, Immortus, Rama-Tut, or Red Centurion in that issue as well. It doesn't mean that they can't. Judging capabilities in isolation does a dissersive to the character by misrepresenting their potential when arguing them holistically, which applies to what the Engineer can accomplish during prep with Reed's brainpower. I'll take this opportunity to skip ahead and address your most egregious statement in the post concerning the plausibility of my strategy and this argument:
Reed has a ton of capabilities (even some related to time, he literally just “beat” Rama Tut in the most recent issue of Fantastic Four!), but you’ve barely shown his own intellect.
I've barely shown Reed's intellect? Even though I've posted his knowledge and intelligence informing cosmic powers with step-by-step details of how to recreate the entire universe from scratch?
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Even though I showed Molecule Man giving Reed the power of the Beyonders to rebuild the Marvel Multiverse after it was destroyed in Secret Wars along with Franklin, exhibiting how even multiversal characters defer to Reed's brainpower/knowledge/intellect?
Let's talk more about that feat and its story arc actually, the Reckoning War. Just recently Uatu revealed the true origins of the Ultimate Nullifier. The Watcher Emnu built it using their knowledge in order to stop the Reckoning, the race of alien warlords that had previously nearly conquered the known universe (and had returned again empowered by the shards of the M'kraan Crystal in the Reckoning War). Emnu obliterated 9/10ths of the universe with a single shot to stop them. This is why the Watcher's have chosen never to interfere with any events of the universe since.
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Reed's mind is powerful enough that he showed he could expand upon the knowledge of the Watcher's and still build things they don't know how to build (i.e, constructing a Forever Gate on the fly with random raw materials!) even though they know everything, and their technological knowledge is what allowed Emnu to create the Ultimate Nullifer. Same way Franklin was able to gain an upperhand on Ruin in thoughtspace even though he had all the technological knowledge of the Watcher's, because Franklin could imagine whole universes since he was a child.
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What you don't seem to be getting is the fact that I don't have Reed. I have Angela Spica, the Engineer, someone with incredible technopathic feats already, who is now empowered by Reed Richard's brainpower; which here refers to his intellect as can be applied to the construction of items, technology, or weapons. I'm not limited by Reed's moral character, his habits, tendencies, biases or behavior patterns. My only responsibility is to prove that Reed is smart enough to build anything I've argued Angela recreating with nanites, as she can instantly conjure any technology she understands.
I have done that beyond a shadow of doubt. There is no logical argument you can make against Reed being smart enough to make Kang's armor if he wanted, based on the fact that the Scion Suit was "cobbled together" in a matter of minutes and allowed him to infiltrate and fool the Council of Kangs into thinking he the same being as them, and he time traveled in tandem with them. Reed is smarter than Kang and is clearly familiar with his tech. That's all I need. It doesn't matter that he chose his elasticity to fight him, he did that on another occasion as well.
I don’t really see any evidence that they can stop forceful time travel? Although I’m not really sure that them being able to helps your team. If we can’t force them back through time, than they just stay stuck in the future and my team gets a reprieve until time catches up to the present.
Why would we stay stuck anywhere if we can time travel?? Whether you go to the future or the past doesn't matter, your actions can be matched, so it's not an advantage for you. And as I showed, any action that creates paradoxes just bodes well in my favor.
No, your team has not been turned into Kang’s. You have shown the ability to at best recreate the Scion armor, which has zero combat showings and was such a non-factor that Fantastic fought Kang without it.
Outside of the fact that I have no faith in Reed’s brainpower being able to do these Kang shenanigans, it should also be stated that being Kang also requires skill. Kang is not a master of time simply because of his armor, his knowledge of time has allowed him to master it in all of its intricacies. Reed certainly has experience with time travel, but it is minuscule in comparison to Kang. He not only would have to somehow come up with the plans to create these things (why of all of the things that he could create, would he make Kang armor without full knowledge of my team?) , but he would also have to come up with the ideas, ingredients, and equipment to create these things on a whim. The Baxter Building nor Angela’s Nantes guarantee the likely very intricate materials and recipes needed to craft the things you’re claiming.
Reed was able to construct a forever gate on the fly with random raw materials to access the apex of all reality during the Reckoning War. Angela equipped with his brainpower would be able to remake any piece of tech he's used and understands. This includes the Watcher's sub-atronic time displacer, which Reed used to forcibly BFR through time and reset the memories of the army of supervillains that Doctor Doom assembled to sabotage Reed's wedding with Sue, which notably included Kang himself, the time traveler.
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The sub-atronic time displacer was a piece of technology that was completely foreign to Reed that he had just encountered for the first time but innately understood and intuitively knew how to use, and was able to discern its properties from looking at it and decided it would be the most appropriate tool for dealing with the threat that Doom wrought upon him.
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So let's think about this logically, because you're not factoring in The Engineer's abilities at all into the decision, or the fact my characters have future sight during prep. Angela is living, liquid metal and her senses alone allow her to measure the magneton radiation of an entire planet...
and analyze the composition of superhumans with radiotelepathy to determine their genetic makeup.
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She was able to create a shapeshifting armor around herself instantly that she used for deep space exploration, with Reed's brainpower and her nanites esentially making her a technopath Green Lantern (or more aptly a lower tier Cyborg Supes) she could easily form the Scion Suit or any other suit of armor that Reed can make.
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But I'm not going to put all my eggs in one basket. I believe my argument is solid but you're truthfully not the first person to be skeptical of Reed achieving Kang's suit, even though he certainly can if he wanted, but he has better feats. Without needing to retcon my prep or introduce new arguments in my closer, I will point you to the fact that I mentioned Reed has the ability to make the Ultimate Nullifier. I don't need to actually use it against you as its complete overkill but one of Reed's most impressive prep feats is the fact he was able to build an Ultimate Nullifier in a matter of minutes to neutralize Galactus during a fight, and he did it using spare parts from Galactus' tech that he didn't previously understand or had encountered. So what would be the argument against Engineer making the suit, when Reed has feats of using and creating technology he's unfamiliar with at a moments notice and using it to defeat cosmic threats? What's the argument against Angela creating any kind of one-shot gun against your team when she doesn't even need to "build" weapons the way Reed and most preppers do, she can simply shapeshift her body of living metal to produce any gun or technology she thinks of in her hands?
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You're clearly at your wits end with this argument, because there is no real logic against it. These are two extraordinarily complimentary powersets. Engineer's nanites and Reed's brainpower fit together like a glove, and the possibilities are endless for what they can achieve during prep.
Ignoring that the nanites have fused with the planet and permeated the atmosphere and can atomically shred you just by you spawning in... I still have 80 Engineer clones posted around the battlefield. Ignoring all of the Kang stuff, the chronal bracelets I showed in my opener can make us invisible and spatiotemporally intangible while retaining our ability to attack you with an Ultimate Nullifier-class firearms barrage, shrink rays, Entropy Guns, Anti-Matter Guns, Cold Guns, etc. I really only went ham on the Kang stuff because you're dependent on time manipulation, but you said yourself that Reed is capable of time manip technology and just beat Rama-Tut with it. I can produce the sub-atronic time displacer Reed used against Kang and Doom and win that way as well. You have no outs.
Once again, they can’t attack at battle start (which is what your intending if you want them to put up these cold fields) with the actuality shell or time intangibility (things you still can’t prove you can actually do.) You have to be intangible to interact with the current time stream (as shown by the Starfox/Thanos scan), which means you’d kill your team too.
Besides that though, Synch retains powers even after someone is dead (as detailed earlier), so them being dead doesn’t really matter. We can also just go back in time to bring them back.
Time traveling is just prolonging the inevitable, you don't have an actual way to beat me. Making this a pointless chase is the best you can do. I have a multitude of ways to one-shot you when I catch you.
This is Kang (or his armor) actively hiding and not being on the same plane as the time reality he’s hiding from. If you want to attack me, you HAVE to be on this plane. You cannot have your cake and eat it too with his armor. If you want to hide out the entire match, sure this might work. But this entire aspect falls apart the second you realize that this is something that must be effectively in a battle.
Even in your own scans, Starfox has to slip back into the timeline to simply touch Thanos. What makes your think that this undetectability will be able to be used during this active in battle?
While you might be able to create a Kang like armor, saying that it will be able to do any of the things you’re claiming is the hugest reach you’ve made here. The only argument you’ve made that might hold water is that the armor can aid in time manipulation defense (undetectability) but that is put off by the fact that you have no combat feats of this (and have feats that would prove that this is something that can’t happen in combat.)
Hiding out until you want to attack pretty much achieves the same advantage, no? The element of suprise? Eros slipped back into the timeline to touch Thanos and then vanished again, what's difficult to understand to about the nature of such an ability? You will never be able to attack me competently without a way to detect my team consistently.
No.
To be fair, I got too busy to add in those Synch scans into my initial post so I can’t entirely blame you for not getting how incorrect you are here, but still. There is no way you actually researched Synch at all because since his revival his powers have been significantly upgraded.
In terms of his general ability to remote power copy, this scan answers your question.
After being resurrected on Krakoa, his powers increased to be able to synch with anyone from muscle memory. The only caveat being that it slowly drains his overall life force, but that aspect doesn’t matter in this confined battle.
Again, this is no different from anything Parasite can do. Parasite doesn't have the limits that he does, it doesn't drain his life force, he can copy multiple people in quick succession, he can absorb energy and steal powers as well, not just copy them. Furthermore, his ability was never contingent on range to begin with. The presence of Synch in this match means nothing insofar as giving you an edge with the ability to copy your teammates powers. The only thing that's relevant is whether or not he can use Jean's TP on any occasion, which he's literally never done without her presence. The TP feat you posted is pitiful compared to things that Cable has done and there's no proof it was specifically Jean's.
Okay I see you have not touched on the fact that the sun projectiles would negate the cold field, just want to note that.
Additionally, in all of these scans you’ve shown of it, the cold field is shown to slow considerably, but not actually freeze completely. There is no reason Manifold can’t teleport us out of it and move further away, where we can continue our attack as planned.
Although none of this really matters because you don’t have battlefield prep. The cold field feats all show/imply battlefield prep from Captain Cold which you don’t have here. You’d have to argue that the cold fields can go up before my team moves from the area to avoid them (which we’ll know due to prep.) With Synch and Tempo’s speed boost, I don’t really think it’s logical for these to be active before my team gets their feet off the ground.
I see you have not touched on the fact that there's no proof you can summon the Sun projectiles once you spawn into the cold field. You would already be frozen. Your characters have no feats of operating when frozen. The Cold Wave that you'll be inside wouldn't let you use any thought-activated abilities either, your brain functions would cease as you're thoroughly frozen. Everyone caught in the Cold Wave was suspended animation, they weren't icicles. It's essentially a stasis field that negates the activity of matter and particles.
When the Flash undid the Cold Wave no one had any memory of it, it was like they were stopped in time but resumed as normal. This is a win condition you don't have a counter to. There's no proof that Flash would have been able to stop the attack if he was caught in the initial wave.
With that being said, I do think that Rachel is in general, equal to Cable in the overall TP wheelhouse (see intro box for Rachel.)
But Rachel isn’t alone here, she’s working in unison with three other very adept telepaths. I don’t see a world where Psycho Man is able to best the three of them.
Rachel is your best telepath and Psycho Man already bested someone who in your opinion is just as strong as her, there's no reason why he or the Control Box (coded into his suit) wouldn't shut down everybody...
Are you genuinely implying that him hacking Latveria means he just understands how to build Doom’s tech?
Part of the reason why this post took so long is because I lost so much interest after reading the Spawn arguments. This entire section is you denying Spawn's capabilities because I used scaling to demonstrate them. Spawn isn't a character that's overly reliant on scaling and he performs most of his feats that are related to his powerset directly, but when it comes to raw stats he simply doesn't do things like planet bust as there's never a story reason for him to do so, or battle location that takes place in that kind of setting. But that doesn't mean he can't, and it's irrational to demand feats of him doing so when he's shown clear-cut parity or superiority to characters who have done so on a consistent basis.
Son Goku from Dragon Ball Z has never intentionally destroyed a planet, ever, in the 40 years that his character has been in publication. Does that mean Goku can't planet bust? No, he is clearly capable of planet busting and so much more, based on his battles with characters that either have done so, are stated able to do so, or do both equivalent things and much more impressive things that require more energy to do so.
Those are the same scans you showed before. Those are statements, I’d like to see him ACTUALLY doing these things. The fact that you still haven’t shown that is such a clear indicator that he never was shown operating at the capacity of Malebolgia. Statements mean nothing if they’re never backed up on.
Why on earth would durability be something transferable via scaling? You keep making these claims SOLELY based on scaling with no actual evidence of Spawn being able to do this himself. When has this form of Spawn no sold a star level attack? And when I ask that, I don’t mean for you to reply that, “Well he beat this person who theoretically can send out star level attacks.”, but I’d like actual proof of this happening.
I’ll touch on this more later but I feel like you know Spawn is hugely inconsistent so you’re relying of scaling to show consistency. When in reality, he’s not even consistently battling opponents that would make him anywhere close to the level you’re debating him at. Spawn has good high ends, but they’re plagued with wonky circumstances or inconsistent follow ups that negate the impact of those high ends.
Yeah but you haven’t though? You’ve shown some amazing Angela and peak Malebolgia feats, but absolutely no feats that put Spawn at tourney limits. And when I say absolutely none I literally mean ABSOLUTELY none, there is not one Spawn scan here (and when I say Spawn scan I mean a scan with SPAWN in it) that would put him at near tourney cap.
When you asked me for proof of Synch’s abilities, I gave you them with no fuss. I simply ask you for feats of your premiere tank doing these tourney cap level things that you claim, and you have skirted around it. You give me one set of scans and it’s a misrepresentation that doesn’t even prove the type of durability we are discussing here.
Throughout this entire debate, you have spent it focusing on characters that you don’t own. You have banked on me allowing you to theorycraft your way through this battle in a way that is illogical.
Spawn is not Malebolgia, nor Angela. Malebolgia at his weakest was tanking Spawn at what appeared to be his best, and it took Angela’s lance slice to take him down. Spawn is the lead character in a series that spanned three hundred issues in its title series, why is it so hard to show consistent feats of him. Matter of fact, you really don’t even have to worry about consistency too much because hes composite, but you didn’t show ANYTHING. If he has the material, why not show it in your first post instead of spending the first 4 sections of your Spawn opener on Angela and Malebolgia?
Because of this argument here you are henceforth NOT allowed to bitch and moan about scan dumps or complain to Stalin about how voters should not take the feats I'm going to post into consideration. The sentiment that you're trying to push here is that Spawn is an inconsistent character who doesn't operate at the level I'm arguing because he doesn't have direct feats of doing things that lesser characters have done. Composite Spawn has a ton of feats, enough to fill multiple respect threads, and too many to go over in an individual post, so obviously my approach to presenting his capabilities in this match was opting to scale him to the most straightforward, accessible, and digestible showings within limits. Spawn is not Angela and he is not Malebolgia, no, but he is demonstrably more powerful than them when composite.
He has never personally destroyed a star but that is not neccessary to prove as you quite literally don't have any star level characters anyway? You already conceded to planet busting anti-matter bombs, so Spawn can vaporize your entire team with his presence by just unleashing a wave of energy from his body. Spawn was able to subjugate every Hellspawn that Satan, Malebolgia and Leviathan ever created, send them to Hell, and then eviscerated every being on Earth with one blast (the resurrected Armies and the Angels).
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The Resurrected Armies are stated to be transformed into demons to usher in Armageddon, not Hellspawn. If you're wondering how powerful demons are, look no further than Phlemon casually obliterating an entire planet with a thought.
Spawn vaporized billions of these creatures and trounced the Hellspawn, he made God and Satan unite against him to try and stop him. Is that good enough for you? A direct feat from Spawn, not Angela or Malbolgia. He casually lifewiped the planet and erased both the armies of Heaven and Hell and ignored the combined attacks of God and Satan after, keep in mind Satan CREATED Malebolgia, Hell, and all the Hell Kings and has overpowered him with no effort, and God obviously created the Angels.
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So try to ask me some nonsense again about whether Spawn scales to Malebolgia or Angela.
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You tried, but there's no way this battle realistically ends any other way. Your whole spiel against Spawn was rooting in casting doubt about whether he consistently operates at the limits or if, when composite, he could scale to the feats of weaker characters. But NO ONE on your team is as strong as Malebolgia or Angela anyway? See if you can follow this line of logic: Spawn has defeated both Malebolgia and Angela in battle and also has the statements backing up the scaling. Angela has star level AP and durability and Malebolgia is even stronger than her. None of your characters are close to star level, wouldn't Spawn's relevativity to them prove that he's capable of solo'ing your team?
People's number one concern and biggest takeaway from this is going to be whether or not Spawn is in limits, not if he's actually an "inconsistent mid tier" like you said he was. His best pre-God Spawn feat would be erasing the resurrected armies of Heaven and Hell and defeating every Hellspawn that ever existed, and there are demons with casual planet busting feats, and Angels like Abdiel who have exploded stars and tanked their supernovas. Without arguing him over star level directly Spawn has the feats necessary to say he can steamroll entire armies of planetary characters and being star level at best means you can match him directly, but not overpower him.
Your entire stance on this topic was to essentially invalidate the point of scaling, saying scaling and statements don't matter without feats. By that logic Goku wouldn't even be planet level.
As far as the rest of my team, particularly with the Engineer and the Kang stuff, I think I defended my point well that the Engineer can create any tool or weapon or item of technology she understands, and Reed is smart enough to create nearly anything in Marvel. He has actual feats of creating weapons like the Ultimate Nullifier, he's used the Infinity Gauntlet before, he used the Watcher's technology, made use of the Badoon's tech and even Galactus' tech, he's hacked all of Doom's technology in Latveria and he's created the Scion Suit, which is a replica of a Kang armor that can time travel and potentially use time manipulation offensively. Th Engineer backed by 80 clones all with Reed's brainpower as well as the nanites having fused with any metal on the planet are limited only by their imagination. We can mass produce planet-busting anti-matter bombs, Entropy Guns, Anti-Matter Guns, Cold Guns, and Shrink Rays, Control Box tech and draining tech.
We can counter all your time travel shenanigans, counter and overwhelm your TP, you still have no counter to the imperceptible nanites in the atmosphere shredding you on the sub-atomic level, or being flash frozen in a stasis field that ceases your brain activity and prevents you from using any thought -activated powers like summoning solar energy, said energy that can be drained or absorbed by the Engineer's shields or Parasite. Last but not least you have absolutely no answer for Spawn, you never bothered to counter his soul destruction, atomic destruction, or his energy projection which vaporized armies of at least planet level to potentially star level characters.
I have mixed feelings on this. Both are very knowledgeable debaters who presented a lot to consider.
The shift between rounds 1 and 2 focusing so much on Kang seemed odd. If HigherPower had started with the Kang suit strategy from the beginning, then the prep and flow would have been stronger, IMO. With no knowledge of their opponents (for either team) until the battle started, YoungJustice had a stronger plan to gain an intelligence/strategy advantage during the battle through his time manipulation and chronoskimming from the beginning. Although Reed's brainpower does give HigherPower the intelligence edge during prep.
One question I have is does Reed's brainpower automatically also give Reed's memories? If yes, then it's much more likely for HigherPower to build and replicate and effectively use his tech during one hour of prep. If no, then Angela would have to still figure out how to do what she does with new tech. It's still possible for it to work, just would be more difficult and take more time to even understand what tech was available. Since that wasn't addressed in the battle, it's uncertain.
I'm nowhere near an expert on Spawn, but composite seemed very strong. Probably worth more than a 6 pointer.
YoungJustice's team and strategy seemed very thoughtful although I'm not sure they could handle Spawn at his limits. Originally, YoungJustice was going to have Synch copy Spawn's powers although that isn't allowed. If a successful strategy was found from their chronoskimming (and he did present several options although I'm not certain those could defeat Spawn as described here), then his team would be in a very strong position.
Tough to choose. I'm slightly leaning towards YoungJustice.
One question I have is does Reed's brainpower automatically also give Reed's memories?
I answered this when Kev asked about it
It gives you the equal brainpower of the individual, not their respective knowledge.
oh wow, did not realize that.
I figured it was obvious from "brainpower" being in there. Higherpower did ask about it though so clearly not!
I already knew that, it changes nothing because the intention is still to allow any character with the perk the ability to build things Reed has built. Which is all I did. You said that yourself unless Kev paraphrased you
regardless the perk would be overpriced and completely useless if i can't use Reed's feats to demonstrate what his intelligence can accomplish
One question I have is does Reed's brainpower automatically also give Reed's memories?
I answered this when Kev asked about it
It gives you the equal brainpower of the individual, not their respective knowledge.
oh wow, did not realize that.
I figured it was obvious from "brainpower" being in there. Higherpower did ask about it though so clearly not!
I already knew that, it changes nothing because the intention is still to allow any character with the perk the ability to build things Reed has built. Which is all I did. You said that yourself unless Kev paraphrased you
regardless the perk would be overpriced and completely useless if i can't use Reed's feats to demonstrate what his intelligence can accomplish
As I said to Kev:
"for the second brainpower ONLY gives you the equal brainpower of the individual not their knowledge" etc. You can definitely try and argue the above, any "intention" is up to you and the opponent to debate further, naturally.
Come on people, this needs some votes. I'll go ahead and cast mine.
First to YJ. I completely understand the difficulties in trying to find the time needed to post between a busy real life schedule. Its hard to enjoy your hobby when you're constantly busy. Good job for seeing it through and still getting your points across.
Now onto my voting.
I had trouble following this one because there was quite frankly TOO MUCH going on. Complex prep and strategies that assumed too many variables for my taste.
Good debate overall but I think you both spent too much time focusing on the Kang stuff. Yes, it was contested back and forth whether Vulcan could actually use Kang's stuff. Vulcan did show his reasoning why it would be possible and even defended the scope of Reed's intelligence. YJ said:
You have the brainpower of the smartest man in Marvel on your team, split into numerous bodies, and you have spent the last two posts talking about a third party. Reed has a ton of capabilities (even some related to time, he literally just “beat” Rama Tut in the most recent issue of Fantastic Four!), but you’ve barely shown his own intellect.
YJ
This does seem like a crime to me, but then Vulcan showed how through his rather complex prep strategy, he was showcasing Reed's intelligence.
I think what you're missing here is that the argument I'm making is Reed is *capable* of creating Kang's armor based on the combination of this featin tandemwith1)his knowledge of Marvel Universe,2)his other prep feats, and3)his many encounters with Kang's technology.
Higherpower
Still I do feel like Vulcan was stretching a little bit with what the suit could do as he pretty much admitted that here:
You're right that the Scion Suit didn't perform most of the techniques I'm arguing here, but neither did Kang himself, Immortus, Rama-Tut, or Red Centurion in that issue as well. It doesn't mean that they can't.
Higherpower
Honestly I feel the time stuff could go either way and was largely irrelevant because of Spawn.
I understand YJ doesn't like scaling but that doesn't take away from Spawn's prowess. Case in point:
Son Goku from Dragon Ball Z has never intentionally destroyed a planet, ever, in the 40 years that his character has been in publication. Does that mean Goku can't planet bust? No, he is clearly capable of planet busting and so much more, based on his battles with characters that either have done so, are stated able to do so, or do both equivalent things and much more impressive things that require more energy to do so.
Higherpower
I think there was plenty of support to show Spawn at Star Level. Considering YJ admitted the planet level Anti-bombs would kill him, I see no reason spawn couldn't outright one-shot the opposing team. There was an argument about using time manipulation to see that future or reverse it but at the end of the day, if you're not fast or strong enough to stop your death, knowing about it won't change anything.
I cast my vote for @higherpower because I see no reason why Spawn wouldn't one-shot YJ's team (along with his own team).
@professorrespect: this battle was sort of hard to gauge and the arguments within them. Both debaters did well. Very well. But it was difficult to follow along as there was a lot to take in. But thing throughout the debate that was eventually answered by the host was the fact regarding Reeds brainpower not equaling Reeds Memories. Which was parts of the prep for Power. Spawn arguments against his scaling felt answered for. Supporting that he was a star leveler. With that said it does feel he does come of as worth more than a 6 pointer after going over the debate. Given his AP,speed, and versatility. Young's teams and prep seems extremely effective however. Chronoskimming seems viable as other voters said but again Spawn seems like a big enough dog to be largely negate this as a strat. my vote goes higherpower
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