Rules:
Manga:
Buu Saga SSJ3 Goku
What can he destroy with a single punch?
Goku Runs Physical Strength Gauntlet
Clears, DB characters do not lack DC. in Super we saw that Goku has same DC with both his punches and energy beams when he clashed both with Beerus and both where able to destroy universe:
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@eredin12: Bro stop, Frieza destroying Earth was a ki technique. Frieza destroying Earth just by pushing his hands down has been debunked dozens of times.
No it has not though, Frieza destroyed the earth with a tap. It is "ki technique" yea, in so far as everything Dragon Ball characters do is ki technique, as they do everything with ki, but no, he did it with ki amped tap. In fact, I think it is actually weird to even contest something like Frieza destroying Earth with his strike, given his power. When Beerus dressed as Monaka and base Goku were just playing around and got bit careless, Whis had to step in and stop their clash as it would destroy earth, that is how trivial something like that is to them, for Frieza to use some TK instead of just the casual tap we saw would in fact make no sense.
I'm pretty sure I've already debunked you directly on this multiple times.
I do not recall anything such, no.
You literally see red energy rings come from Freiza's hands, and if it was a push the explosive shockwave would have traveled in one direction, yet Earth blew up omnidirectionally. It's likely a similar move Frieza used to blow up Krillin.
You see that because that is the ki shockwave that happens countless times after DB characters hit hard enough due to their strikes being amped with ki. Just like you see the same yellow shockwave/ring when Black/Vegeta clash for the same reason:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/v6hh0i/black_clashing_with_vegeta_causes_a_shockwave/
And I have no idea what you mean by this tbh, It was an omnidirectional explosion, just like when Champa and Beerus destroyed the planet, that is simply how planets exploding as a result of an strong impact often looks like(force spreading through an entire planet and blowing the entire thing up), there are many examples of that in fiction that I could post if you wish:
It is nothing like what he used on Krilin, which was TK that involved him lifting him up and then exploding him, where the shockwave that you mentioned was not present at all, shockwave like that does not happen when DB characters use TK, it certainly never did when Frieza exploded Krilin, it only ever happens when they hit hard, so the fact that we see it after his hit is actually hard evidence that he did not in fact use TK here.
No it has not though, Frieza destroyed the earth with a tap. It is "ki technique" yea, in so far as everything Dragon Ball characters do is ki technique, as they do everything with ki, but no, he did it with ki amped tap.
lol he didn't just tap it. your argument is as dumb as arguing every time a star wars character force pushes someone it's actually the air pressure from their hand motion knocking them back. it was OBVIOUSLY a ki technique, and no, not a ki amped strike or tap.
In fact, I think it is actually weird to even contest something like Frieza destroying Earth with his strike, given his power.
I never said he couldn't...I said he didn't...
When Beerus dressed as Monaka and base Goku were just playing around and got bit careless, Whis had to step in and stop their clash as it would destroy earth, that is how trivial something like that is to them,
Post god amp base Goku having full power strike clashes with Beerus isn't comparable to buu saga ssj3 Goku or a tired and weakened Frieza just "tapping".
for Frieza to use some TK instead of just the casual tap we saw would in fact make no sense.
Who says TK is les casual than a tap? And stop with your statement saying it was a tap. You are performing a begging the question fallacy. We are arguing if he destroyed it with a tap or not, so any argument that needs the assumption he did in fact destroy the planet with a tap is fallacious.
I do not recall anything such, no.
It could have been someone else, but I've had this discussion like a dozen times, and I'm pretty sure I've seen you spouting this before.
You see that because that is the ki shockwave that happens countless times after DB characters hit hard enough due to their strikes being amped with ki. Just like you see the same yellow shockwave/ring when Black/Vegeta clash for the same reason:
https://www.reddit.com/r/RTvideos/comments/v6hh0i/black_clashing_with_vegeta_causes_a_shockwave/
That still wouldn't explain the delayed reaction.
And I have no idea what you mean by this tbh, It was an omnidirectional explosion, just like when Champa and Beerus destroyed the planet, that is simply how planets exploding as a result of an strong impact often looks like(force spreading through an entire planet and blowing the entire thing up), there are many examples of that in fiction that I could post if you wish:
Those explosions are completely different. The destruction is immediate upon impact and affects the side of the planet hit. The other planets were hit so hard they just completely shattered.
Earth blew up completely different
It makes absolutely no sense for the planet to completely blow up after the fact either.
A physical strike should have caused immediate destruction.
It should be more like this, but on a massive scale.
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In the RoF movie Frieza doesn't even really push down with his hands. Some energy is clearly coming form his palms, and then only after a few seconds of that does things start actually happening.
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similarly in Super all of a sudden energy/lava starts shooting up, even though a push with planet destruction force should have cause an immediate above nuke level explosion.
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Literally the only evidence it was a physical attack is there was no visual red ki blast coming from Frieza's hands, but we know he doesn't need that to blow things up.
And that move would be MUCH more consistent with physics and the rest of the series.
This is what happened when Goku blocked a punch from Golden Frieza
Here is Beerus destroying a planet with a tap.
Now I actually think the above is probably a ki technique as well since he was able to destroy exactly half of the planet, but the above destruction which happened immediately after the tap is what should happen if a physical strike destroys a planet. It should not randomly start making lava shoot out of random parts of the planet and then have an even bigger explosion like a minute later.
So AT BEST, you can argue it either way and just say Dragon Ball ignores physics and logic, but if it can be either way you can't use that feat on its own for evidence. If your only evidence for ssj3 Goku being able to planet bust with a punch is there is a 50/50 chance an even stronger character did it, you kind of lost the argument.
He did one tap it though. SW analogy is weird because, in that case, it is very clear that they use TK as it is the central power of verse and one which just like in every other verse, is used with gestures. That is why I do not think anyone in history of SW debating ever argued force pushes are air pressure from their strength. Here on the other hand we not only know Frieza is far above the level needed to one tap earth but we also have have direct evidence that Frieza did not use TK like he used on Krilin, and we literally see him tap the planet and a shockwaves appears after it and it exploding.As opposed to him exploding Krillin where he had to fire blast inside of his armor first and there were of course no shockwaves. That is why I say that evidence is very clear that this is ki amped tap, it is ki technique just like everything else in verse is, but it is ki technique that involves the amping force of your tap. Anything else is far too contradicted and in general just wierd hill to die on, as it is not even related to my Goku point here.
What direct evidence? And no, there was nothing that came out of Frieza's hand, that was anime only.
And even if something does come out of Frieza's hands, his hands were glued to the ground, so there would be no way for us to see it in that scenario...
I said it is weird to contest that he didn't, because it is plainly contradicted by evidence,
it's not weird because I think it's plainly contradicted by evidence that he didn't do it with just a push.
and it does not make sense because given how effortlessly he can one tap planet, it makes absolutely no sense for him to do some weird internal TK you seem to be implying.
Let's say he can easily do it by tapping his hands. TK could arguably be even easier since it's a mental attack that doesn't require body movement. We know it's in character for Frieza to be lazy and likes to destroy things with ki attacks. So if it's just as easy for both, it's more incharacter to do it with an energy attack.
It's actually EXTREMELY strange you are acting like a TK attack is somehow some strange thing for him to do, even though it's an attack he has done before and can do it effortlessly. For all we know it's 10x easier for him to do TK than to move his own arm. You are applying your own preconceived notions of what is and isn't harder.
Frieza in question was equal to post god amp basse Goku, and SS3 Goku has nothing to do with this, that is an entirely separate point I made.
Frieza was tired and would get his ass kicked by Goku at that point.
There is no assumption though,I mean we literally see him tap the planet, making a shockwave on impact,
I'm saying I don't think that's the case. You think it's obvious so you can use it in your argument is literally a textbook begging the question fallacy.
just like in Black/Vegeta example I showed, the ones we see in verse as the result of strong impacts, and the planet exploding.
The shockwaves looked somewhat similar, but you can't prove that was no more than a coincidence. The shockwaves weren't even the same color, and Frieza's "shockwave" was red, the exact same color as his ki attacks.
And trying to use some weird TK to somehow blow the earth from within sure sounds like way more work than simply tapping the surface with no care in the world.
Why is "weird TK" less simple than tapping? Imo if you have TK that would be easier and less effortful than using your physical muscles. It's like saying "why would a jedi lift an object with the force if they are just strong enough to pick it up with their muscles." A VERY strange argument indeed, and one you are making.
I was always saying what actually happened yea.
lol
And you also claim Vader used TK on the suma even though I hear the author of the comic flat out said it was TP, and you still ignored him. You say what suits your narrative and upscales characters, you are very consistent with this.
Delayed reaction? As soon as he tapped, everything started exploding, and then the earth exploded shorty after. First of all, stuff like that happens all the time in fiction. For example, take a look at Ashura punching planet sized wyzen(1:38), after he punches him for a 4 seconds nothing happens and then(4 seconds after) he starts melting before finally exploding 30 seconds seconds later:
That's a giant magical character getting destroyed. Asura's attack could have killed him and then after he died his body finally blew up. And we see how the destruction travels up his arm in a linear fashion where it finally gets to the rest of his body and he blows up pretty quickly.
So expecting everything to explode in an instant all the time and basing your argument on that is a non-starter, tbh. Even when he destroyed planet Vegeta if you recall, we see his blast hitting the planet and exploding (1:20), and then after it exploded, you, pretty much just like when he tapped Earth, you see explosions appear all over planet Vegeta, then entire planet from all sides started breaking before finally exploding in a massive explosion:
It took time for the kinetic energy to travel across the planet and the final explosion of the planet breaking apart wasn't very big. there is also the fact Frieza sends his attacks to the planet core, so that takes a while. That version of the scene did look like it went off on the surface, but it still reacted way different than the RoF attack. Literally random explosions were popping out of the planet all of a sudden. With this attack there was just one big explosion and the planet started cracking apart. Frieza's push should have had an explosion the size of the supernova we see in the video you posted and then the planet should have crumbled under that force. It more so seems like Frieza set off some chain reaction that caused the planet to blow up. Lava literally starts shoot up towards Frieza after this attack. This makes no sense. All matter should be being blasted away by the force of the push.
RoF was retconned by anime( and thank god for that, it had nonsense like SSB being hurt by laser) so it is not really relevant to our discussion
The RoF movie and the anime events are both equally canon. The anime events are canon to the anime, and the movie is canon to the manga. RoF is actually technically the most recent version of the events released, as for the Black arc a special edition of RoF was released with new scenes of future Trunks and Gohan Black. The script was also written by Toriyama, while the anime's wasn't.
and even in it he still taps earth. Energy you see comming from it is shockwave from impact, but again RoF is not really relevant.
We see a scene where it goes down into the planet and something is seemingly destroyed within, and then lava starts shooting up.
That is one piece of evidence, not only one or even the primary one though. Chief evidence is that when Frieza uses TK, a shockwave is never made and yet we very clearly see a shockwave when Frieza taps earth.
Why can't TK cause shockwaves?
Why couldn't this move cause a shockwave?
Also, in your example, Frieza did in fact need to first fire blast before exploding Krilin like that, something he never did here either. So all in all your theory lacks foundations to stand on and yet you are pushing it as fact.
As shown above, this is blatantly false.
And I'm pushing it as a fact that it's definitely not clear enough to go around saying Frieza destroyed Earth why a physical push and nothing else. It's AT BEST 50/50 either way.
it would not though. The rest of series established characters in question are far above the level needed to one tap planet,
I only agree with this if you think base Goku surpassed BoG SSG, which I don't.
Frieza doing that makes way more sense than him bothering with some weird targeting from within, for which he needed to first fire blast inside Krilin's armor anyway, something he never did here.
Again, this is a weird argument. I think Frieza could effortlessly use TK to do it. I don't see how an ability he has been shown to use multiple times easily is somehow "weird". And firing a blast first has been debunked.
And? What is relvence here? I sure hope that you are not trying to argue someting such as " oh he did not destroy the planet there so he is not planet level!" because I hope we all know that in almost every single verse in fiction, collateral damage is very small almost all the time and in DB such stuff is even explained with ki control.
How the hell would ki control have control over destruction caused by physical strikes? Ki control only makes sense with controlling the size of ki blast explosions. They can control their punches to be weaker, but if a punch hits land with a certain amount of force, it will cause a certain amount of damage. Yeah, fiction tends to ignore this, but it certainly isn't ki control. It would just be something we have to ignore since this is all fake and it needs to happen so the plot can continue.
Once again everything DB characters do is ki technique, but Beerus just like Frieza used ki to amp his tap to destroy planet. Him destroying only half of it is basic ki control, lol. And as I said, trying to argue on basis of realism just does not work. We see Frieza tap
You know what I mean by ki technique, stop being difficult. I'm not saying ki blast because there are a multitude of ki based techniques and clearly neither one was a standard ki blast. If Beerus can stop the explosion half way from the strike, that means it's not destruction coming from kinetic force, but rather ki traveling through the planet. So essentially it's destructive ki that comes out through their physical body and enters their target. They ARE NOT amping their physicals with ki to increase the speed and power of their strike rustling to result in pure physical destruction coming from kinetic impact.
Two things. First, I never even used Frieza to destroying planet as evidence that Goku here can, my point on Goku was always very clear. And that is that Super established characters have similar DC and AP when it comes to their punches, by having Goku in the first arc be able to destroy the entire universe with both his punches and his blasts,.
That was due to shockwaves that grew stronger as they went out, meaning the final result of the shockwaves could have been stronger than the initial punches.
Frieza destroying earth has nothing to do with Goku and I simply brought him as MasterBuster asked me how does character destroy planet with punch, how does that look like, I wanted to show one example of that.
Well that's a bad example because it's HIGHLY questionable Frieza destroyed Earth by physically pushing on it. A better example would be Goku destroying King Kai's planet, but Goku would just do it on a much larger scale.
Second, this cannot be either way. For one, Frieza fired a beam inside of Krilin's armor before exploding him, he did no such thing here.
Already debunked.
For two, his tap here made shockwave, which only happens as a result of very strong ki amped strike, it never happened when he used TK before to do that to Krilin or in other cases.
That's literally just to let the audience know Frieza did something. If you slow the video down you can see Frieza's hands didn't even move one inch. How can he destroy the planet with a push if he didn't even push? His hands would have at least crushed the ground under him, but they didn't.
Your entire argument here( one tbh that I do not see the point in, we both agree Frieza is far above planet level I do not see why would you wish to contest this) seems to e based purely on supposed scientific accuracy, which is wierd to me really as we both know friction at times ignores that.
If you read dragon ball, the series is very consistent that the planet is only ever in danger from ki attacks. Everyone was afraid of Goku pointing a kamehameha at the ground, nobody is ever afraid of him punching near the ground. When Kid Buu wanted to destroy the Earth he used a ki blast. When he was stopped he made a bigger ki blast instead of just stomping his foot on the ground which would have been easier and quicker. Not a single thing in the original dragon ball manga implies the character physical strikes have the DC to destroy entire planets, and the narrative blatantly contradicts that. AP is a different story, but DC? Yeah no, the evidence doesn't come for that until Super.
What direct evidence? And no, there was nothing that came out of Frieza's hand, that was anime only.And even if something does come out of Frieza's hands, his hands were glued to the ground, so there would be no way for us to see it in that sceario...
We are talking about anime canon here, are we not? Kai is canon to Super anime, manga is canon to DBS manga, and it happened in Kai. And we likewise, in Super anime simply see him tap the ground, crack ground, and make shockwaves, nothing was fired down. But either way as I said him firing the first blast is not really important for my point, but rather the fact that when Frieza uses TK there is obviously no shockwave, fact that we see him tap the planet and make a shockwave on impact here is direct evidence that he did not use TK.
it's not weird because I think it's plainly contradicted by evidence that he didn't do it with just a push.
I have no idea what could possibly make you think that tbh, we literally see him tap the ground, make shockwaves, and the earth exploding. Your only objection was something like" why did it not happen instnatly" which as I showed, does not really hold.
Let's say he can easily do it by tapping his hands. TK could arguably be even easier since it's a mental attack that doesn't require body movement. We know it's in character for Frieza to be lazy and likes to destroy things with ki attacks. So if it's just as easy for both, it's more incharacter to do it with an energy attack.It's actually EXTREMELY strange you are acting like a TK attack is somehow some strange thing for him to do, even though it's an attack he has done before and can do it effortlessly. For all we know it's 10x easier for him to do TK than to move his own arm. You are applying your own preconceived notions of what is and isn't harder. Why is "weird TK" less simple than tapping? Imo if you have TK that would be easier and less effortful than using your physical muscles. It's like saying "why would a jedi lift an object with the force if they are just strong enough to pick it up with their muscles." A VERY strange argument indeed, and one you are making.
But he did move his hand though, he tapped ground, cracked it and made a shockwave. What you are implying is that he did that and somehow also used TK as well, which is absolutely more work than simply tapping the ground with no care in the world, as in the former case you would be doing 2 things at once while in the latter just one. Now if he just used TK then yea I would see your point and agree, but that is not what happened.
Frieza was tired and would get his ass kicked by Goku at that point.
Given how strong Goku is at this point, it does not matter, he was still more than strong enough to easily one-tap Earth.
I'm saying I don't think that's the case. You think it's obvious so you can use it in your argument is literally a textbook begging the question fallacy. The shockwaves looked somewhat similar, but you can't prove that was no more than a coincidence. The shockwaves weren't even the same color, and Frieza's "shockwave" was red, the exact same color as his ki attacks.
it is not about thinking though, we can literally see it with our eyes him tapping the ground, cracking it and making shockwaves on impact and then everything starts exploding:
That is why him one tapping is obvious, if he used TK or such there would be no shockwave like that, as those only happen when characters hit hard enough. Now we have seen time and time again that color of shockwaves changes but that is not really relevant, there is never any shockwave when TK is used.
And you also claim Vader used TK on the suma even though I hear the author of the comic flat out said it was TP, and you still ignored him. You say what suits your narrative and upscales characters, you are very consistent with this.
it was not an author who said that(Greg Pak), it was an artist, and I did not ignore that. That said I have no idea how saying DBS Frieza one tapped planet " upscales character", such a level of power is so effortless to characters at that point that it just goes without saying.
That's a giant magical character getting destroyed. Asura's attack could have killed him and then after he died his body finally blew up.And we see how the destruction travels up his arm in a linear fashion where it finally gets to the rest of his body and he blows up pretty quickly.
Seeing as you hear him scream 20+ seconds after that final punch from Ashura and a few seconds before he blew up, not really. My point with this is to show why everything does not need to be instantly destroyed. After Ashura punched him for 4 seconds, nothing at all happened, only after 4 seconds did destruction even start. I wanted to show why " delayed reaction" is not a valid argument at all.
It took time for the kinetic energy to travel across the planet and the final explosion of the planet breaking apart wasn't very big. there is also the fact Frieza sends his attacks to the planet core, so that takes a while.That version of the scene did look like it went off on the surface, but it still reacted way different than the RoF attack. Literally random explosions were popping out of the planet all of a sudden. With this attack there was just one big explosion and the planet started cracking apart. Frieza's push should have had an explosion the size of the supernova we see in the video you posted and then the planet should have crumbled under that force. It more so seems like Frieza set off some chain reaction that caused the planet to blow up. Lava literally starts shoot up towards Frieza after this attack. This makes no sense. All matter should be being blasted away by the force of the push.
He did not send it to the planet's core in Vegeta, we clearly see it exploding on the surface. Now after it exploded it took some time for kinetic energy to travel, and we see things all around the surface blowing up before the big final explosion, and same thing also happened on Earth. There was no chain reaction at all lol, he tapped planet, force made fissures hence why lava came, and things started blowing up all around the surface just like after his blast exploded on the surface of Vegeta, before finally the entire planet exploded. In both cases, destruction was not instant, but nonetheless, it destroyed planets which is what matters.
The RoF movie and the anime events are both equally canon. The anime events are canon to the anime, and the movie is canon to the manga. We see a scene where it goes down into the planet and something is seemingly destroyed within, and then lava starts shooting up.
True, but we were talking about the anime version. And even in RoF, what you see destroyed within is pieces of rock in ground, due to the force of his hit traveling around.
Why couldn't this move cause a shockwave?
TK can cause shockwaves where force is applied, that is when Frieza pushes Goku there, Goku hitting ground can cause shockwaves, but what it cannot and did not happen is shockwaves do not appear around Frieza's arms after he uses TK. If Frieza used TK here to target the interior of the earth, shockwaves could not possibly appear on impact with the ground at surface, and yet we see shockwaves in a place where he taps and cracks the earth.
As shown above, this is blatantly false.Already debunked.
Is it? If we are talking about anime canon, I am pretty sure this is just what happened there, and we are talking about anime versions:
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And I'm pushing it as a fact that it's definitely not clear enough to go around saying Frieza destroyed Earth why a physical push and nothing else. It's AT BEST 50/50 either way.
Given that we see him tap the ground and make a big shockwave, I think it is more than clear really. Any other theory just too much contradicted.
I only agree with this if you think base Goku surpassed BoG SSG, which I don't.
One does not need to think base Goku is universe buster to think he can casually destroy earth, seeeing as former takes infinitely more power than the latter.
How the hell would ki control have control over destruction caused by physical strikes? Ki control only makes sense with controlling the size of ki blast explosions. They can control their punches to be weaker, but if a punch hits land with a certain amount of force, it will cause a certain amount of damage. Yeah, fiction tends to ignore this, but it certainly isn't ki control. It would just be something we have to ignore since this is all fake and it needs to happen so the plot can continue.
In either case, I would not see any relevance of posting that characters that did not cause large environmental damage with some attack. That said, if they can control the force of their blast after they explode(a blast does not need to be planet-sized to destroy a planet after all, see the size of the blast Frieza made that exploded on the surface of Vegeta, it was nowhere near that big, and yet it still destroyed it with the force it had), I see no reason why they cannot do that with their punches as well.
You know what I mean by ki technique, stop being difficult. I'm not saying ki blast because there are a multitude of ki based techniques and clearly neither one was a standard ki blast. If Beerus can stop the explosion half way from the strike, that means it's not destruction coming from kinetic force, but rather ki traveling through the planet. So essentially it's destructive ki that comes out through their physical body and enters their target. They ARE NOT amping their physicals with ki to increase the speed and power of their strike rustling to result in pure physical destruction coming from kinetic impact.
You are one who is being difficult here with everything tbh. Beerus simply tapped the planet hard enough, made a giant shockwave, and destroyed it. Him only destroying half of it can be either because he only hit hard enough to destroy half or because of ki control. You really need to accept that in fiction, not everything has to have 100% scientific accuracy and when it does not argue it is somehow not strike.
That was due to shockwaves that grew stronger as they went out, meaning the final result of the shockwaves could have been stronger than the initial punches.
Oh come on, why do I have to deal with this moronic argument from 2016 that has been debunked billions of times already and that mostly trolls ever argued? Shockwaves were only less destructive around Earth due to Goku trying to cancel it and save Earth, they were not in general stronger as they went out, as obviously shown by them destroying planets in the mortal universe and yet doing nothing to the Old Kai planet, or Old Kai himself, which were further away than anything in the mortal universe. So no, shockwaves were not and cannot be stronger than what made them, that is utterly stupid lol. Their punches themselves were what was universal:
Same punch that base Goku used to destroy the universe-busting sphere he and Beerus made as well. So stop it. You know better than this.
Well that's a bad example because it's HIGHLY questionable Frieza destroyed Earth by physically pushing on it. A better example would be Goku destroying King Kai's planet, but Goku would just do it on a much larger scale.
There is nothing at all questionable about it as I showed, it is just another thing you tried to lowball for no real reason. You also recently said that DB characters consistently have fodder physicals, so tbh I am not sure what is with all these lowballs.
That's literally just to let the audience know Frieza did something. If you slow the video down you can see Frieza's hands didn't even move one inch. How can he destroy the planet with a push if he didn't even push? His hands would have at least crushed the ground under him, but they didn't.
They did, we literally see Frieza tap the ground, crack it under him and make a shockwave as a result:
RoF that you were happy to use before, also has him clearly taping the ground, so Toryiama's intent is very clear. Saying " that is to let the audience know" has no weight, it is an established fact that shockwaves only happen when hit is powerful enough. If they wanted to show the audience that he used TK, they would not include shockwaves and would simply show him blowing a core or something inside.
If you read dragon ball, the series is very consistent that the planet is only ever in danger from ki attacks. Everyone was afraid of Goku pointing a kamehameha at the ground, nobody is ever afraid of him punching near the ground. When Kid Buu wanted to destroy the Earth he used a ki blast. When he was stopped he made a bigger ki blast instead of just stomping his foot on the ground which would have been easier and quicker. Not a single thing in the original dragon ball manga implies the character physical strikes have the DC to destroy entire planets, and the narrative blatantly contradicts that. AP is a different story, but DC? Yeah no, the evidence doesn't come for that until Super.
Nothing contradicts that though. Did characters use KI blast to do it in the original series? Sure, does that mean that they were unable to do it with strikes? Of course not. Nobody was ever was afraid of Goku(and many other characters) throwing casual blasts, that does not mean he could not have easily destroyed Earth with those. That is what ki control is all about. And while it is true that the original DB lacked such DC showings, Super beyond any doubt established characters have DC and AP on similar levels when it comes to physical strikes.
We are talking about anime canon here, are we not? Kai is canon to Super anime, manga is canon to DBS manga, and it happened in Kai. And we likewise, in Super anime simply see him tap the ground, crack ground, and make shockwaves, nothing was fired down. But either way as I said him firing the first blast is not really important for my point, but rather the fact that when Frieza uses TK there is obviously no shockwave, fact that we see him tap the planet and make a shockwave on impact here is direct evidence that he did not use TK.
Saying Frieza didn't destroy Krillin in that particular way in the anime is a cop out imo. And we see Golden Frieza can set of explosions by mere touch when he killed the assassin's from universe 9. This also backs up that ability being stronger than him just touching, as if his touch was enough the assassin's would have been dead just from that. Or you could argue "why would Frieza use a weird explosive ability if he can just kill with touch" which is basically your counter to the TK argument in the first place.
Heck, the little red beam we see go towards Krillin in the anime can even help my argument. I can see that is the red "shockwave" we saw hit the earth, and then it blew up like Krillin.
That is why him one tapping is obvious, if he used TK or such there would be no shockwave like that, as those only happen when characters hit hard enough. Now we have seen time and time again that color of shockwaves changes but that is not really relevant, there is never any shockwave when TK is used.
It doesn't have to be his TK specifically, just he sent some ki energy into the planet to make it blow up.
That said I have no idea how saying DBS Frieza one tapped planet " upscales character", such a level of power is so effortless to characters at that point that it just goes without saying.
Whether this is true or not, I don't think the scene indicates he destroyed the planet that way.
Seeing as you hear him scream 20+ seconds after that final punch from Ashura and a few seconds before he blew up, not really. My point with this is to show why everything does not need to be instantly destroyed. After Ashura punched him for 4 seconds, nothing at all happened, only after 4 seconds did destruction even start. I wanted to show why " delayed reaction" is not a valid argument at all.
And I brought up why that scene doesn't counter my arguments, so you would need a different scene if we were to go down that route. But I don't see how bringing another series being inconsistent with physics would help prove why this scene wasn't.
I'm ware dragon ball visually doesn't follow physics, but in this case the way the animators decided to animate how the planet blew up, I don't think they were trying to show Frieza destroyed it by just pushing on it.
I wouldn't say you are wrong to believe that's how he did it. Just that you are wrong to claim it's an absolute fact and try to go around spreading that.
In either case, I would not see any relevance of posting that characters that did not cause large environmental damage with some attack. That said, if they can control the force of their blast after they explode(a blast does not need to be planet-sized to destroy a planet after all, see the size of the blast Frieza made that exploded on the surface of Vegeta, it was nowhere near that big, and yet it still destroyed it with the force it had), I see no reason why they cannot do that with their punches as well.
They might control how much they are going to explode before they fire the ki blast, not after it is already fired. And Goku has been shown controlling ki after it has left his body, so I don't see why he couldn't control the explosion size of something made of 100% ki. A ki explosion is different from a kinetic explosion caused by ki. Like when a ki blast blows up in a circular ki ball, the ball size can probably be controlled, but rocks being blasted off in different directions wouldn't be controllable.
You are one who is being difficult here with everything tbh.
There is a difference between being difficult with your opinion, and being difficulty because you are getting petty with the words someone is using.
Beerus simply tapped the planet hard enough, made a giant shockwave, and destroyed it. Him only destroying half of it can be either because he only hit hard enough to destroy half or because of ki control. You really need to accept that in fiction, not everything has to have 100% scientific accuracy and when it does not argue it is somehow not strike.
Disagree, I think it's a technique similar to the one he used to destroy the egg in battle of gods.
Shockwaves were only less destructive around Earth due to Goku trying to cancel it and save Earth,
This was never stated and is complete head canon.
they were not in general stronger as they went out, as obviously shown by them destroying planets in the mortal universe and yet doing nothing to the Old Kai planet, or Old Kai himself, which were further away than anything in the mortal universe. So no, shockwaves were not and cannot be stronger than what made them, that is utterly stupid lol. Their punches themselves were what was universal:
The feat has to be split between Goku and Beerus and it would have taken like 10 punches to finally destroy the universe, so it's more like 1/20th universal.
There is nothing at all questionable about it as I showed, it is just another thing you tried to lowball for no real reason.
It is questionable. I really don't have a problem with you saying Goku can destroy a planet with a punch, it's just you think it's so obvious Frieza destroyed the planet just by physically pushing on it and are trying to claim that's a fact.
You also recently said that DB characters consistently have fodder physicals, so tbh I am not sure what is with all these lowballs.
The show keeps making scenes like this, it isn't my fault. And it is consistent that signature attacks are far stronger than basic strikes.
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