Do you believe in free will?

Why or why not?

Absolutely not - determinism and randomness both preclude free will. The former does because it means something outside of your control caused you to act in the way you did, and the latter does because precisely nothing (including yourself) caused you to act in the way you did.

The interesting question is @steve40l: do you believe in free will? My guess is probably not, which is the more predictable and altogether less exciting answer, but maybe you'll surprise me and actually have some unique flavour to your worldview.

@cj_the_dj: No. In 7th grade I was thinking about a meteor and how no matter how obscure its path, it was always going to go there; and so people likely aren't any different than a meteor. If I had a simulation of the universe, I could run it a thousand times and everything will end up the same, and I could predict everything with perfect accuracy. I hope my view on it isn't too boring for you.

@steve40l said:

I suppose boring is maybe the wrong word, and has too negative a connotation. Your view isn't uninteresting, in the sense that such a type of argument is made by many philosophers, and it's good that you're only 15(?) and thinking about such a complicated topic. What I meant to get across is more that - in a lot of cases - when I already have an existing set of facts about someone's worldview, it becomes easy to work out what they believe on a certain topic before I ever even see them express the view themselves. As such, I tend to enjoy it a bit more when there's a "unique flavour" - that's the way I put in my last post anyway - and a person's take on a subject doesn't align with what you would generally guess it to be.

I think we have Will but it's Not Free. Like the Choices we make have Conditions and Variables that alter how we react to certain things that helps us Choose. EX : Like no one is freely deciding whether they are voting for Donald Trump or Joe Biden this November. It's the Variables and Conditions connected with them that help shape how we will Choose. It's Not Free. You can apply this to almost anything too.

@cj_the_dj: That's fair, I can definitely relate.

@king_saturn: So you're saying that we make choices, but they're almost always more so based on external factors. Or are you saying that they're completely based on external factors?

I would say we make choices that are almost always based on external factors. There could be instances where someone could make a random choice with no external factors. I mean it's small chance but it's there. I do not really believe in absolutes here.

@king_saturn: ok, thank you

I believe in Einstein’s block time

So everything has already happened the moment the universe began

First of all, the question is strange. It is presented in a dual manner, free will or not free will. Moreover, asking if we believe in it when belief and free will do not mix well. At first glance, such a bad question surprises me coming from you, but on reflection, it is sneaky enough to be assumed.

I do not agree with @king_saturn 's vision because, in my opinion, a human decision is never random. A decision is a choice and a choice is always driven, at least in part, by internal factors. Even the choice to flip a coin is an internal choice. If this were not the case, there would be no accountability for actions.

I don't agree either with that of @cj_the_dj. It presents in a caricatured manner determinism and randomness which, moreover, are antinomic. Being predictable does not mean being totally determined.

When, in a case, I decide to comply with the law even against my principles because I do not want to bear the disapproval of society, is it the law or my cowardice which determines this choice. Is it the external factor or an internal factor ?

@jacdec:

I don't agree either with that of @cj_the_dj. It presents in a caricatured manner determinism and randomness which, moreover, are antinomic.

What about my characterisation of determinism and randomness is a caricature? Also, I'm confused as to how whether the two concepts are antinomic or not is relevant, because what I wrote wasn't prescriptive about both or only one of them being true. The point is that regardless of which is true, free will doesn't exist.

When, in a case, I decide to comply with the law even against my principles because I do not want to bear the disapproval of society, is it the law or my cowardice which determines this choice. Is it the external factor or an internal factor ?

Probably some mixture of both. But even the internal factors aren't within your control - you didn't freely decide to be the way you are - so the influence on your behaviour that they have doesn't imply free will.

Short answer: Yes

I’ve been thinking about this topic lately, or the concept of fate in general. I’m a Christian, and as such believe that certain things are in fact set in stone, given the prophesies in the Bible. God knows the ending therefore one would think it’s set. But at the same time I think people make choices to get to where they’re at.

There will be those told by Jesus that he never knew them; it doesn’t matter how many we evangelize to in that sense; that will happen no matter how much it hurts me. There will be those who go to Hell and I can’t change that.

Is everything set? I don’t know for sure. Possibly. At least in our perspective, we get to make our choices.

@jacdec: Well you only partially disagree with My Vision, jacdec. I said that there could be some instances that someone could make a choice randomly because I do not believe it to be absolute. Most of the time External Factors do drive our Choices. That was my Original Reply here.

@xzone: I ask you this only. Do you think that External Factors influence our Choices ? If so, how can you say our Choices are truly free if Conditions and Variables can move or alter them ? Also, what does John 6:44 mean ? How is it that Yeshua can say No Man Come To Me Unless The Father Draw Him and yet you have the choice to come to Yeshua ? Is it not Yahweh who does the choosing and not yourself ? That's actually two or three questions. Apologies.

@jacdec:

Neither is entirely true or false. Absolute determinism is incompatible with quantum theories. And we must admit that the same causes almost always have the same effects.

I'm aware of the incompatibility of absolute determinism with quantum theories - which is why, again, I specifically shied away from adopting an absolutely deterministic framework to answer the question. The point was that the alternative to determinism still isn't within your control, as you can't credibly claim you have any say over the randomness of quantum mechanics.

If so, you have a problem and you should work on it. A battered child does not necessarily make an abusive parent. An angry child can become a measured adult. A man attracted to women is not necessarily unfaithful. Everyone can be introspective and thus arrive at more measured decisions.

Saying we don't have free will isn't the same as saying we can't make choices, introspect, or try to meaningfully improve our circumstances. It is good for people to feel some sense of responsibility to better themselves. The point is that those choices, and your general ability to better yourself, are constrained by your own consciousness. And, however consciousness and thoughts arise, it is certainly not us that determines their nature.

@jacdec: Generally it's more interesting when you only present people withe the most obvious options

Yes, I believe in free will. I believe that every person has the ability to make decisions and choose their own path in life. Our behavior may be subject to external influences and circumstances, but even in such cases we always have the opportunity to choose and control our actions.

bump

freedom of choice =/= freedom of consequences

you can't will yourself to perfect health by eating big macs all day with no exercise

I don't see a space for a free will to exist.

That doesn't absolve you of your responsibility for having crappy taste and being obese.

This has almost nothing to do with the question

Yes, it is an attempt at demonstration through the absurd. But it is incorrect. It says "There is no free will because we cannot make contradictory decisions", which is false.

@jacdec: If that's what's being said than then he's definitely wrong

that's bad translation on your part

I am not sure if I think that free will exists. Currently, I think that everything is predetermined by God. So at the moment, I think that humans do not have free will. I think God has free will.

For example, I think God willed the universe into existence. God did not have to create the universe, but He did by choice. It is just my opinion. God is the only being who is not a part of creation, since He is the creator. God is outside limitations. Anything that is bound by limitations cannot have free will, in my opinion. Humans, animals, plants, fungae, bacteria, viruses etc are created by God, they are creations, so I think that they cannot have free will. I am not sure if God exists or not, but at the moment, I will say that God does exist. But anyway, I am talking about free will, not the existence of God. By the way, have a good weekend everybody.

I'd toward no. I think everything is already determined

We therefore have no responsibility for anything. No need for conscience !

No

Well, of course free will exists.

could you elaborate on that?

@king_saturn said:

External factors can absolutely influence our choices as Christians. In fact, Proverbs 13:20 states, "Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm."

@xzone said:

God is omnipresent and omniscient, so he's present everywhere at the same time. Simply knowing our future doesn't automatically translate to Him setting it up for us completely. If a man chooses to distance himself from God, he will live a lifestyle absent from Him and receive no blessings since he decides that the Almighty Father shouldn't be part of his life.

That was my Question to the other User I was replying to. I gave my own answer to that question earlier.

God knows what a Person will do in the Future but also Creates or has Hand in Creating said Person. That actually trumps what the Person will do because if you Create something beforehand knowing it will do Action A can it do anything else other than what is known it will do ? The other thing is what is discussed above. Remember about those External Factors ? Who has control of those External Factors ? Who often uses External Factors to cause things to be ?

If the ending can be known that means it is set

If God creates a human being, and they live a lifestyle without His influence, why's He considered an external factor? People are the cause. He doesn't directly affect a non-believer's life. Do you expect the Heavenly Father not to deliver pregnancies in different communities? Do you want a world where everyone is born equally and has the exact same circumstances and outcomes? That doesn't sound like free will to me. We would just become mindless puppets.

@steve40l said:

Yes, humans set up their own lives. I agree.

@king_saturn said:

How about a serial killer murdering everyone in his path regardless of age, sex, and race?

Well it's the things in his Life that are the External Factors not God nor the Man with the Lifestyle. God is in control of those Factors hence God is responsible for why Man does not come to him because if God had other External Factors affect his Life or altered what Factors was in that Man's Life then he would be Different. That's a terrible assumption. How can God call or draw anyone to him unless they believed not before he drew them to him ? Well a World where everyone is Born Equally could actually be pretty Interesting. Depending on what Equal looks like. You assume that we would be Mindless Puppets. You assume that God could not create a World where everyone desired to do what he wanted and not forced to. The people who will supposedly be in God's abode Heaven are all freely loving God and are in a better place that Earth. So we know that's it's attainable for God to make this happen.

What made the Serial Killer become this way ? What external factors causes him to become the Monster ? You are not just born the Monster.

@officialtopg: that's not even close to what I said

@king_saturn:

Well it's the things in his Life that are the External Factors not God nor the Man with the Lifestyle. God is in control of those Factors hence God is responsible for why Man does not come to him

How exactly is God in control of ALL these factors, though? Again, He allows humans to act freely. They can undoubtedly reject His offer and live on their own.

because if God had other External Factors affect his Life or altered what Factors was in that Man's Life then he would be Different. That's a terrible assumption. How can God call or draw anyone to him unless they believed not before he drew them to him ?

For starters, God does try His absolute best to put faithful people into others' lives, leading them to Jesus. However, claiming that He fully controls every worldly element is intellectually dishonest.

Well a World where everyone is Born Equally could actually be pretty Interesting. Depending on what Equal looks like. You assume that we would be Mindless Puppets.

If we're not granted liberation or any opportunities to thrive on our own, we are puppets.

You assume that God could not create a World where everyone desired to do what he wanted and not forced to.

That, my friend, is called Heaven. No sins will be committed there.

The people who will supposedly be in God's abode Heaven are all freely loving God and are in a better place that Earth. So we know that's it's attainable for God to make this happen.

Yes, I never claimed otherwise. Our Father is omnipotent, so He is most certainly capable of creating a sinless world. What is the point if He doesn't know our true inner self, though?

What made the Serial Killer become this way ? What external factors causes him to become the Monster ? You are not just born the Monster.

Do you support the LGBTQ? Some individuals are apparently "born" gay. I'm using the same logic.

@king_saturn:

The same way God is supposedly Omnipresent, Omniscient, Omnipotent and such. That's how he has control of all factors. God does not always allow humans to act freely especially if he manipulates or alters factors. People only reject God's offer if he seems it so to be if God's is Omniscient and Omnipotent.

Being all-powerful doesn't mean He interferes with every single human affair. Is there biblical proof that God is constantly manipulating external factors?

Not True, there are a lot of people who never heard of Yeshua or even at that God puts them in families where another Faith is the Strength of that People apart from Christianity.

Everyone has heard of God. He has clearly revealed Himself in nature. Read Romans 1:20.

So is God not then Omniscient, Omnipotent, Omnipresent ? God can control the elements if he wants to if he is the Omni's

I'm still unsure where you heard this implication. Just because God is omnipotent doesn't mean He actively controls all elements. The world runs on its own, and humans are in charge of their lives.

That's your assumption to the position. That is not a given at all. Think Heaven.

It's not an assumption. It's common sense. We still have a purpose in Heaven.

Exactly. Meaning God can create a Place where people freely do what he wants. That is the Point.

I have never argued otherwise, as God is capable of creating anything.

You admitting this makes every point I was making earlier. I am not sure what you mean by God not knowing our true inner self ? I do not think there are things God does not know.

Let me break this down into simpler terms. If everyone is born with zero freedom, lives the same life, and dies the exact death, there is no evidence that they are pure. God is testing every one of us.

I do not think it's possible to be born Gay or Heterosexual. You are usually born with no real understanding of sexuality. I mean it just happens. At some point in your life you started like a certain group of people a lot more and wanted to be with them "more closely". It was not really a choice it just happens as you grow.

I'm glad you believe this. Are serial killers given free will to commit murder, then?

@king_saturn said:

Did you hear about the murder of John Allen Chau on North Sentinel Island when he tried to spread the Gospel? These sinners eternally reject the ideas of God and must face punishment.

@officialtopg said:

@king_saturn said:

Not True, there are a lot of people who never heard of Yeshua or even at that God puts them in families where another Faith is the Strength of that People apart from Christianity.

Did you hear about the murder of John Allen Chau on North Sentinel Island when he tried to spread the Gospel? These sinners eternally reject the ideas of God and must face punishment.

Never heard of this but remember the part where I said God puts people in families where another Faith is the Strength ? This is an example. The people that Chau was trying to spread the Gospel to was People that God had put into those Communities and felt some type of way about Christianity. It falls back to God and these External Factors he either Causes or Allows.

@king_saturn:

God does not have to interfere with every single human affair.

I'm glad we agree on this matter.

God interferes as he desires. Quite a bit of that happens in the Bible.

God mainly intervenes because of His love, which extends to all of creation. In fact, "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him... have everlasting life."

Everyone may have heard of God but not Yeshua. Also, It's not nature why you would we know of God. It's generally from a Religion. You will not get to God just by looking at Nature. At best you could get some type of Cause for Things.

The primary issue is that a majority of sinners reject even the simplest principles of God. Anyone who truly tries to seek after Him will undoubtedly find Him. One can certainly reach Him using nature. God is "made to men everywhere," meaning the physical universe, philosophy, or basic reasoning involving creation. This is why almost every culture possesses a higher form of deity. They can reasonably come to the conclusion that God exists through nature. Satan and other fallen angels deceived them with the wrong beliefs.

Well God can control all Elements. That is the point. It was more about God controlling the External Factors anyways and not all the Elements.

Yes, God can obviously control all elements, considering he's all-powerful. What is your argument?

No, it's an assumption because if God has a place like Heaven where everyone freely follows him then it means God can create a place where everyone freely follows him.

It's common sense. Why are humans suddenly worthy enough to live in this "perfect" universe? They must prove themselves to God so that they can enter Heaven. Adam and Eve initially lived in a sinless and pure world. However, Eve couldn't resist the temptation to eat the fruit. She disobeyed God.

Exactly, I would agree. So then why do you say we would be Mindless Puppets if God created a World where everyone would follow him then ?

I claimed we would be "mindless puppets" if we weren't given freedom and lived the same lives with absolutely no uniqueness. This isn't true to the Bible. God weaved everyone in a special way. Heaven disregards sin and death for those who decide to give up their worldly desires and follow Him.

But you assume that we would not have Freedom just because we all have similar Lives.

We wouldn't...

I think you took the extreme to the point that was being made earlier. The exact same life and exact same death does not mean directly being Born Equally. We could have variations and be born equally.

Give an example. Based on my interpretation, if we are born completely the same, our lives will align.

There are external factors that lead them to become serial killers. I mean from a different perpsective serial killers are given free reign to kill until someone stops them.

I should've asked this in the beginning for more clarification, but are you referring to external factors in an environment that may be out of a person's control?