Anakin was nerfed on Mustafar (EU)

It is a common misconception Anakin and Obi Wan were equals on Mustafar I will provide an analysis on why it's not the case. I'm not the best at analysis posts but I'll try my best.

Delusion:

When arguing Anakin and obi-Wans strength being equal this very scene is commonly brought up.

While on paper it seems like a clash as an offensive move from both it's actually Anakin blocking the force attack.

202 INT. MUSTAFAR-MAIN CONTROL CENTER-DAY

The battle intensifies.

OBI-WAN: (continuing) The flaw of power is arrogance.

OBI-WAN stands looking at his former apprentice for a moment.

ANAKIN: You hesitate . . . the flaw of compassion.

OBI-WAN and ANAKIN lock sabers. OBI-WAN puts out his hand to use the Force to push ANAKIN away. ANAKIN puts out his hand to block OBI-WAN.

Both combatants are blasted backwards onto the control panels.

They regain their footing and the battle continues. ANAKIN kicks OBI-WAN away.

They battle around the room, and eventually the door to the exterior is knocked open. They continue battling out onto the balcony.-ROTS Script

When both get sent flying landing on opposite sides of the room Anakin is the one who recovers faster while obi-Wan still takes his time to get up only managing to the very second Anakin leaps off the table to strike.

Anakin attacks Obi

Dueling prowess:

Anakin in my opinion is the better duelist. The reason Obi-Wan was able to hold out so long was due to him knowing Anakin. These two spent timeless sessions sparring an training together and have fought side by side in countless battles they are both even described as halves of a single warrior.

His lightsaber came up in an instinctive parry. They had sparred together so often that they knew each other's favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin's attack. Lightsabers humming, they battled their way down the hall and into the control center. It felt.... familiar, like another practice session, except for the exploding equipment.-ROTS novelization

Blade-to-blade, they were identical. After thousands of hours in lightsaber sparring, they knew each other better than brothers, more intimately than lovers; they were complementary halves of a single warrior.-ROTS novelization-ROTS novelization

For example:

Obi-Wans defensive form is also a direct counter to Anakin who's style is primarily offensive and even said statements of having no weaknesses Obi-Wan has been noted to be capable of facing opponents people stronger than him can't beat or take care of such as general Grevious Mace who has fought Grevious before in EU even thinks Obi wan is a better to challenge him(Obi has even beaten Mace in videogames with him admitting inferiority but that's for another day)

"He must have been trained by Count Dooku," Mace had said, "so you can expect Makashi as well; given the number of Jedi he has fought and slain, you must expect that he can attack in any style, or all of them. In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him." This pronouncement had startled Obi-Wan, and he had protested.

"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataro-" Mace Windu had almost smiled.

"I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way. "That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"

"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

Even then during the actual duel Anakin for most of the fight for the first half completely dominates Obi-Wan

Credit to my boi @frozen for the gifs( I suck at making them)

Anakin drives back Kenobi with a kick.

Drives him back again

"Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks."-ROTS novelization

Nearly breaks his bones.

Obi-Wan Kicks Anakin having little to no affect on him only forcing him back an inch.

Meanwhile a kick from Anakin causes him to flinch and stumble

​​​​​​Anakin overpowers him in sabers yet again and even pimp smacks him

All this while nerfed(coming now)

Anakin was nerfed

Anakin was nerfed on Mustafar and very badly at that.

Anakin mentally breaks believing Padme to have betrayed him. He has no control of his emotions. having bad control over your emotions in a battle nerfs the combatant.

One of the problems with Sith is that they are quick to anger this scene with her, it was very important that we sort of set it up to the point where he chokes her as he does with one of the Generals in Episode IV, but at the same time he doesn't kill her or anything, he just you know causes her to faint, but you get to see that flash of anger, that he now doesn't really have that much control over

The whole point of a jedi is that you can completely control your anger and now he's at a point where he cant control it at all, and its because of his need for control and power and being very upset when he doesn't have it- ROTS audio commentary track

Anakin has self doubt,

Again stated to not have good control over his emotions

Anakin stated to be between both worlds and vulnerable on Mustafar.

Now compare that to Obi-Wan who's always remained focused

Credit to @shootingnova(I wanted to get these myself but it was too much a hassle)

As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi.

-Ultimate Visual guide

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all... Obi-Wan still loved him.Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go.

Source: Revenge of the Sith

Anakins downfall: Why he lost

Anakin's over confidence and cocky nature is what causes him to lose.

It was Anakin's overconfidence, fueled by the dark side, which led to his defeat. A mistimed leap over Obi-Wan allowed him to swiftly cut Anakin, leaving him disabled on the shore of a lava river.

Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Anakin's greed and arrogance and denial causes his downfall

Anakins arrogance and overestimation causes him to lose.

and finally HIGH GROOOUND

Good thread

@ieatnettles: Thanks 😊

I thought this was common knowledge.

@wolfrazer:

Well in Disney canon, Anakin is not nerfed on Mustafar. So it is understandable that people have confusion for EU. As the context behind the same fight can be different in separate continuities.

Good stuff. Certain individuals will never accept Anakin's true strength.

@redsithdisciple: Chosen one remains on top

Yep, good job

He was nerfed in canon imo as well

There’s way more than this even. In the ROTS novel it also notes how Anakin hadn’t slept or eaten for days by the time he was on Mustafar, so certainly wasn’t in the best physical or mental position.

There is also an ongoing metaphor throughout the novel of the dragon inside of Anakin, a metaphor for the dark power that he keeps locked away for fear of loosing control. It mentions how he let it go a bit on Invisible hand. Then on Mustafar, there is a passage that talks of how Anakin feels the dragon has poisoned him, which metaphorically refers to his dark side and emotions causing him damage, impacting him rather than helping him at that point.

It is pretty clear that Anakin was hindered both physically and mentally on Mustafar for several reasons and by a significant amount. Add that to Kenobi’s familiarity with him as a fighter and that is how he was able to find a path to victory.

Senior RotS novel confirms he’s prime as does fact file and bts.

Anakin isn’t nerfed. This fan cope still happening nearly two decades later is comical

This is the definition of copium.

Zero evidence for this. And plenty to say otherwise. Disney canon position on the fight is actually very clear. Anakin is at his most dangerous on Mustafar.

Um can you pwetty pweeeze provide a counter🥺

He was nerfed in canon as well.

he wasn't nerfed in canon, he was in EU though.

Only in EU like others have said.

@thecloudatlas: Is something the matter?

@macattack1: Is this what your referencing?

A fatal transformation.

Everything was proceeding according to plan.

And yet . . .

He couldn't shake a certain creeping sensation ... a kind of cold, slimy ooze

that slithered up the veins of his legs and spread clammy tendrils through

his guts . . .

Almost as though he was still afraid . . .She will die, you know, the dragon whispered.

He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no

power over him. He had destroyed his fear.

All things die.

Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the

dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.

Now its poison chilled him to the bone.

Even stars burn out.

He shook himself again and strode toward the holocom.

Evidence cited - 0.

Anakin is nerfed in live-action showings, just like Yoda struggling with small rocks in ep.2. The fact he couldn't jump higher and got cut in half when we see jedi jump so much higher in the Clone Wars says it all. The plot needed him to lose. Other than that he was the dominant one on the offensive while Obi was on the back foot. I wonder how that fight would have gone if Obi didn't have the environment to use.

Anakin was not less powerful on Mustafar. In fact, his baseline power was greater than ever. His lack of clarity was what lead to his downfall. Obi-Wan contending as well as he did is a boon for him, not a detriment to Anakin.

@exileduhu: Did you read my quotes and scans?

@supreme101: do u think mace really beat sidious in eu?

@redhood101k: in EU he threw the fight

@supreme101: Kenobi was also nerfed due to his hesitance to kill Anakin, so both were nerfed.

When both get sent flying landing on opposite sides of the room Anakin is the one who recovers faster while obi-Wan still takes his time to get up only managing to the very second Anakin leaps off the table to strike.

Anakin getting up quicker is logically due to being a bit physically superior and probably having a bit more reserves in the tank too, aka stamina, both for Force and the normal physical body.

he reason Obi-Wan was able to hold out so long was due to him knowing Anakin. These two spent timeless sessions sparring an training together and have fought side by side in countless battles they are both even described as halves of a single warrior.

This argument has never made sense to me, as you can easily use the same argument against Anakin. He knows Kenobi's style better than anyone, meaning they negate each other's advantage here. This would only be relevant if one was more familiar with the other's style.

Obi-Wans defensive form is also a direct counter to Anakin who's style is primarily offensive

Being defensive isn't a direct counter to being offensive. Things are not so black and white. And the way you're describing it implies to me that Kenobi trained in the better style anyways, which is a point towards him.

Even then during the actual duel Anakin for most of the fight for the first half completely dominates Obi-Wan

Landing a kick is not dominating someone. He did land more melee strikes than Kenobi overall in the fight, which is a point for him, but it's not a sign of domination at all. Anakin pushing Kenobi back is because Anakin is offensive and Kenobi is defensive, so naturally Anakin will lead the fight.

"Obi-Wan felt the bones of his forearms bending, beginning to feather toward the greenstick fractures that would come before the final breaks."-ROTS novelization

This is in the earlier half of the fight when Kenobi is still hindered:

"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion-"

"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."

He sighed. "It's regret for the man you should have been."

Obi-Wan Kicks Anakin having little to no affect on him only forcing him back an inch.

And right after your quote here, Kenobi broke free of it immediately by letting go of his hesitance more:

With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.

His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood.

He was a step away from getting knocked on his ass. Having that type of reaction to a kick clearly means it affected you. Obviously Anakin isn't going to reel in pain over it though.

The reason Kenobi got sent back further by Anakin's kick in the beginning of the fight is because Anakin already got him off balance with a parry.

Meanwhile a kick from Anakin causes him to flinch and stumble

Your comparing a kick to the face to a kick to the stomach. This obviously isn't comparable.

Anakin mentally breaks believing Padme to have betrayed him. He has no control of his emotions. having bad control over your emotions in a battle nerfs the combatant.

That would boost his strength, but also make him a bit less refined and more prone to making mistakes, but again, Kenobi was hindered too, as he clearly didn't want to kill Anakin. Such unbalancing is much more damaging to Light Side users, as they absolutely rely on control and calmness.

Even Anakin tells Kenobi that he is hesitant, to which Kenobi agrees, as I've shown earlier.

Anakin's greed and arrogance and denial causes his downfall

This arrogance only caused him to make a mistake that would cripple him. Kenobi already won the moment he got the high ground. Anakin tries to move to the side of him to get on even or higher ground? Kenobi would simply meet him there. He jumps higher? Kenobi Force pushes him into the lava. He steps onto the low ground and fights him there? He clearly loses based off Kenobi treating it as such a significant thing. It's a disadvantage in real life, but in Force user combat, apparently it's the opposite.

Anakins arrogance and overestimation causes him to lose.

Yes, but that same quote says they seem to be even.

I should also note that yes, while Anakin's uncontrolled anger nerfs him from an intelligence standpoint and maybe a bit in terms of skill, it definitely doesn't make his power any lesser. It being so severe that he can't control it probably increases it if anything, as volatile anger is clearly of greater intensity than controlled anger, despite the latter generally being better.

I think you can debate on who is truly better, but I don't think it's any big gap. I personally think Anakin has a slight edge in direct combat and probably slightly more Force power, but Kenobi is a smarter fighter and has better stamina management with Soresu. I think who wins depends on the complexity of the environment, which correlates to how many different tactics Kenobi can use.

This post is a bit rushed because I'm busy, but yeah, that's my thoughts on this.

It was before the arrival of the Kenobi Support Group.

@seventhmoon:

Kenobi was also nerfed due to his hesitance to kill Anakin, so both were nerfed.

In which way the thought of killing him or when he has the chance to but couldn't bring himself to do it.

Anakin getting up quicker is logically due to being a bit physically superior and probably having a bit more reserves in the tank too, aka stamina, both for Force and the normal physical body.

......... That's the point physically superior and having greater stamina.

This argument has never made sense to me, as you can easily use the same argument against Anakin. He knows Kenobi's style better than anyone, meaning they negate each other's advantage here. This would only be relevant if one was more familiar with the other's style.

True but this is against a nerfed Anakin who is still greater in every aspect against Obi.

Being defensive isn't a direct counter to being offensive. Things are not so black and white. And the way you're describing it implies to me that Kenobi trained in the better style anyways, which is a point towards him.

But it can however. not saying in general but.... in this case it is as seen with the guide and mace statements.

Landing a kick is not dominating someone. He did land more melee strikes than Kenobi overall in the fight, which is a point for him, but it's not a sign of domination at all. Anakin pushing Kenobi back is because Anakin is offensive and Kenobi is defensive, so naturally Anakin will lead the fight.

It wasn't just that I was referring to (the kick) I also used him being driven back which your also mentioning. being driven back is a sign of losing ground when fighting someone. He wasn't having any control.

This is in the earlier half of the fight when Kenobi is still hindered:

Where is that? I didn't see that(must be another version)could you also context the quote.

And right after your quote here, Kenobi broke free of it immediately by letting go of his hesitance more:

So as to deal the killing blows

He was a step away from getting knocked on his ass. Having that type of reaction to a kick clearly means it affected you. Obviously Anakin isn't going to reel in pain over it though.

The reason Kenobi got sent back further by Anakin's kick in the beginning of the fight is because Anakin already got him off balance with a parry.

Kenobi wasn't staggering his blade was just knocked away from his face. In fact Anakin was alr using in the middle of his kick animation

Your comparing a kick to the face to a kick to the stomach. This obviously isn't comparable.

I mean....his physicals are enhanced overall all while both are very sensitive. I agree the face is more fragile but yet again force enhancement.

That would boost his strength, but also make him a bit less refined and more prone to making mistakes, but again, Kenobi was hindered too, as he clearly didn't want to kill Anakin. Such unbalancing is much more damaging to Light Side users, as they absolutely rely on control and calmness.

Even Anakin tells Kenobi that he is hesitant, to which Kenobi agrees, as I've shown earlier.

But when you lack control you get weaker that would be the same for Anakin.

This arrogance only caused him to make a mistake that would cripple him. Kenobi already won the moment he got the high ground. Anakin tries to move to the side of him to get on even or higher ground? Kenobi would simply meet him there. He jumps higher? Kenobi Force pushes him into the lava. He steps onto the low ground and fights him there? He clearly loses based off Kenobi treating it as such a significant thing. It's a disadvantage in real life, but in Force user combat, apparently it's the opposite.

So if he didn't make the mistake then Obi-Wan wouldn't have crippled. As shown in the cutscenes from the ROTS game if Anakin wasn't off balance and made the mistake he wouldn't have lost. They were approved by George so they count. Not canonized obviously but it says something.

Yes, but that same quote says they seem to be even.

I should also note that yes, while Anakin's uncontrolled anger nerfs him from an intelligence standpoint and maybe a bit in terms of skill, it definitely doesn't make his power any lesser. It being so severe that he can't control it probably increases it if anything, as volatile anger is clearly of greater intensity than controlled anger, despite the latter generally being better.

Yes but with lack of control he can't utilize it properly. He may have the power but not capable of using it.

I think you can debate on who is truly better, but I don't think it's any big gap. I personally think Anakin has a slight edge in direct combat and probably slightly more Force power, but Kenobi is a smarter fighter and has better stamina management with Soresu. I think who wins depends on the complexity of the environment, which correlates to how many different tactics Kenobi can use.

Definitely depending on the verse matchup and writer/author sayings.

This post is a bit rushed because I'm busy, but yeah, that's my thoughts on this.

Really? You got your point across just fine.

@supreme101: In which way the thought of killing him or when he has the chance to but couldn't bring himself to do it.

His general hesitance to kill Anakin.

......... That's the point physically superior and having greater stamina.

I thought you were also including in the Force. I don't believe Anakin is greater in the Force in sheer power. Maybe more reserves, and physically he is stronger, meaning his augmentation would boost him a bit higher due to higher default stats.

True but this is against a nerfed Anakin who is still greater in every aspect against Obi.

He's not really greater in every aspect if, per your own admission seemingly, Kenobi's fighting style is superior to the point it allows him to defeat opponents with greater power, on top of Kenobi matching Anakin overall in a Force competition of direct power, just with him recovering slowly due to likely less stamina and being less physically impressive.

Anakin definitely has advantages, but Kenobi does too. That's all I'm saying.

But it can however. not saying in general but.... in this case it is as seen with the guide and mace statements.

Mace's statement seems to just be rating Soresu very highly as a whole. Maybe you can argue it's a superior style to Djem So overall? I just don't see it randomly being a direct counter to it specifically.

It wasn't just that I was referring to (the kick) I also used him being driven back which your also mentioning. being driven back is a sign of losing ground when fighting someone. He wasn't having any control.

I mean it makes sense for Kenobi to be giving ground in a defensive fight against an offensive powerhouse. This would be more of an argument against him if he was a more varied or offensive fighter. Even the Stover novel states that Kenobi giving ground is due to "his way" and his hesitance to kill Anakin:

In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.

Where is that? I didn't see that(must be another version)could you also context the quote. - Revenge of the Sith Novelization

It's in chapter 42. Kenobi defeated Anakin by using the Force to disable his mechanical arm, disarming him and obtaining his lightsaber. Anakin said he was hesitating though, and used that hesitance to crash into him and regain his saber.

Obi-Wan had only one trick left, one that wouldn't work twice-But it was a very good trick.

It had, after all, worked rather splendidly on Grievous . . .

He twitched one finger, reaching through the Force to reverse the polarity of the electrodrivers in Anakin's mechanical hand.

Durasteel fingers sprang open, and a lightsaber tumbled free.

Obi-Wan reached. Anakin's lightsaber twisted in the air and flipped into his hand. He poised both blades in a cross before him. "The flaw of power is arrogance."

"You hesitate," Anakin said. "The flaw of compassion-"

"It's not compassion," Obi-Wan said sadly. "It's reverence for life. Even yours. It's respect for the man you were."

He sighed. "It's regret for the man you should have been."

Anakin roared and flew at him, using both the Force and his body to crash Obi-Wan back into the wall once more. His hands seized Obi-Wan's wrists with impossible strength, forcing his arms wide. "I am so sick of your lectures!" - Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Also, since you are bringing up two different versions of the Anakin Vs. Kenobi fight, I'd like to mention the third one, where Kenobi was hindered for much longer:

Still, the fight continued, even as the collection tower sank slowly into the lava. And still, neither man could gain an advantage.

But that's not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and the let the living Force move him -- the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.

It was hard. It was perhaps, the hardest thing he had ever tried to do. For in letting go of his anguish, his despair, and his pain, he would have to let go of the Anakin who was his student, his brother, and his dearest friend. He'd have to admit that this time, he could not save the man who had saved his life so many times, whose life he had saved at least as often.

Obi-Wan couldn't do it. As the collection tower sank farther into the lava, he looked for a way to escape. - Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

He only let go at the end to immediately defeat Anakin:

And then, as Anakin came close enough to swing his lightsaber once more, the Jedi in Obi-Wan rose up and at last did the thing he hadn't thought he could do. He let go. Calm, centered, free -- for the moment -- of sorrow and despair, resting in the living Force as he had been trained to do, Obi-Wan Kenobi looked at his former friend and student, and did the unexpected. He made a soaring leap into the air and landed on the high bank of the lava river.

"It's over, Anakin," he said, looking down. "I have the high ground. Don't try it." - Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization

I don't think these versions can be intermixed honestly. The junior novelization clearly favors Kenobi the most in terms of being hindered.

The Stover novel paints Kenobi as being hindered as well, but shows him letting go of his hesitance earlier on. However, I noticed after looking over the fight that he didn't even fully let go as Anakin was about to break his wrist.

Later on in the fight in that same chapter, it says that Kenobi still loves him and only after some realization, he was finally able to fully let go:

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all ...

Obi-Wan still loved him.

Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go. - Revenge of the Sith Novelization

So only by the end did Kenobi fully let go.

He also reached the platform in the lava river before Anakin found his, like in the movie, which is further evidence of Kenobi's superior tactical mind and capability to seize an advantage quicker than Anakin:

The whole collection plant was being carried, inexorably, out over a vast lava-fall.

Obi-Wan decided he didn't really want to see what was at the bottom.

He turned Anakin's blade aside with a two-handed block and landed a solid kick that knocked the two apart. Before Anakin could recover his balance, Obi-Wan took a running leap that became a graceful dive headlong off the crane deck. He hurtled down past level after level, and only a few tens of meters above the lava itself the Force called a dangling cable to his hand, turning his dive into a swing that carried him high and far, to the very limit of the cable.

And he let it go.

As though jumping from a swing in the Temple playrooms, his velocity sent him flying up and out over a catenary arc that shot him toward the river's shore Toward. Not quite to.

But the Force had led him here, and again it had not betrayed him: below, humming along a few meters above the lava river, came a big, slow old repulsorlift platform, carrying droids and equipment out toward a collection plant that its programming was not sophisticated enough to realize was about to be destroyed.

Obi-Wan flipped in the air and let the Force bring him to a catfooted landing. An adder-quick stab of his lightsaber disabled the platform's guidance system, and Obi-Wan was able to direct it back toward the shore with a simple shift of his weight. - Revenge of the Sith Novelization

Anakin was lucky there was something else around to land on.

But yeah, Kenobi is treated as tactically superior with a more nuanced control over the Force than Anakin. Control that would've led him to win the fight early on if not for his hesitance.

The Stover novel also doesn't depict Anakin trying to foolishly challenge Kenobi's high ground as he's fully prepared, but instead he realizes he got outplayed and tries to strike Kenobi as he's reaching the high ground and his back is turned, yet still fails.

"This is the end for you, Master," he said. "I wish it were otherwise."

"Yes, Anakin, so do I," Obi-Wan said as he sprinted into a leaping dive, making a spear of his blade.

Anakin leaned aside and deflected the thrust almost contemptuously; he missed a cut at Obi-Wan's legs as the Jedi Master flew past him.

Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back-Half a second too slow.

Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee. - Star Wars Revenge of the Sith Novelization

The movie paints Kenobi as getting hit a bit more from melee strikes than Anakin, but of course, with Kenobi outplaying Anakin at the end with a superior tactical mindset.

Overall, I think it's probably the most interesting Star Wars debate, but I generally favor Kenobi. He's blatantly Anakin's superior in the Junior Novel due to fighting Anakin while hindered the entire time. He is relative to him in the movie and outsmarted him in the end still to secure a win. And in the Stover novel, he basically won twice, if not for hesitating to kill Anakin once he disarmed him early on, clearly showing his superior tactical mindset.

I was under the impression in your thread that you thought Anakin was significantly stronger than Kenobi in the Force and as a fighter period, which is why I came in contesting some of this.

Kenobi wasn't staggering his blade was just knocked away from his face. In fact Anakin was alr using in the middle of his kick animation

The picture shows a position where Kenobi was pressed back, meaning he was already dealing with the force of being pushed back by Anakin's parry, which would mean he doesn't have perfect balance, which would naturally make him fall once kicked by Anakin.

Also, it doesn't really seem like the kick hurt Kenobi to any noticeable extent.

But when you lack control you get weaker that would be the same for Anakin.

I mean unhinged anger should make one less skilled in their utilization of the Dark Side. I don't think it weakens the raw potency of it.

So if he didn't make the mistake then Obi-Wan wouldn't have crippled. As shown in the cutscenes from the ROTS game if Anakin wasn't off balance and made the mistake he wouldn't have lost. They were approved by George so they count. Not canonized obviously but it says something.

I'm sorry, but I don't count the game. Not only does it have very suspicious things, like a conflicted Anakin using the Dark Side somehow beating a dead serious Vapaad Mace, but it then has Anakin nearly losing to Cin's padawan.

Yes but with lack of control he can't utilize it properly. He may have the power but not capable of using it.

He is less refined in his usage of power, I agree.

Anyways, even though I don't 100% agree with everything here, I get your points and I don't find them dumb by any means. Kenobi Vs. Anakin has always been a doozy of a discussion.

@seventhmoon:

His general hesitance to kill Anakin.

hmmm.

I thought you were also including in the Force. I don't believe Anakin is greater in the Force in sheer power. Maybe more reserves, and physically he is stronger, meaning his augmentation would boost him a bit higher due to higher default stats.

I'd say he is in that aspect too. While nerfed he stalemated Kenobi in the force clash.

He's not really greater in every aspect if, per your own admission seemingly, Kenobi's fighting style is superior to the point it allows him to defeat opponents with greater power, on top of Kenobi matching Anakin overall in a Force competition of direct power, just with him recovering slowly due to likely less stamina and being less physically impressive.

Kenobi matched Anakin force power due to it only being a block and Anakin's force power being nerfed. And when you look at the movie Kenobi took a lighter hit when sent flying.

Anakin definitely has advantages, but Kenobi does too. That's all I'm saying.

Yeah I get your point.

Mace's statement seems to just be rating Soresu very highly as a whole. Maybe you can argue it's a superior style to Djem So overall? I just don't see it randomly being a direct counter to it specifically.

It should when it has no weaknesses with the right user who would be Kenobi. Kenobi has even beaten mace(twice in fact) in EU canon games.

I mean it makes sense for Kenobi to be giving ground in a defensive fight against an offensive powerhouse. This would be more of an argument against him if he was a more varied or offensive fighter. Even the Stover novel states that Kenobi giving ground is due to "his way" and his hesitance to kill Anakin:

Grevious was an offensive powerhouse(depending on iterations) and he wasn't giving him any real ground when he fought. Him and in the novel he's blatantly struggling. Especially when he had to use all his skill to combat him.

Tho the Stover statement is validated.

Also, since you are bringing up two different versions of the Anakin Vs. Kenobi fight, I'd like to mention the third one, where Kenobi was hindered for much longer:

Ah. But what of when they start clashing again before/after he ran. A guide even states the darkness even blinded Anakin which gave him a weakness which kenobi used against him.

But yeah, Kenobi is treated as tactically superior with a more nuanced control over the Force than Anakin. Control that would've led him to win the fight early on if not for his hesitance.

Seems so.

Overall, I think it's probably the most interesting Star Wars debate, but I generally favor Kenobi. He's blatantly Anakin's superior in the Junior Novel due to fighting Anakin while hindered the entire time. He is relative to him in the movie and outsmarted him in the end still to secure a win. And in the Stover novel, he basically won twice, if not for hesitating to kill Anakin once he disarmed him early on, clearly showing his superior tactical mindset.

Well without nerfs then it shouldn't be arguable.

I was under the impression in your thread that you thought Anakin was significantly stronger than Kenobi in the Force and as a fighter period, which is why I came in contesting some of this.

In a way I'd say yes. The amount of nerfs to his physical and mental state are accountable. But skill wise it's close and tactical wise then yes.

The picture shows a position where Kenobi was pressed back, meaning he was already dealing with the force of being pushed back by Anakin's parry, which would mean he doesn't have perfect balance, which would naturally make him fall once kicked by Anakin.

But look how much it affects him. Even then based on ground and durability he shouldn't have been kicked so far.

Also, it doesn't really seem like the kick hurt Kenobi to any noticeable extent.

Not really it didn't no your right but just through observation of the fight on Obi wan holding out.

I'm sorry, but I don't count the game. Not only does it have very suspicious things, like a conflicted Anakin using the Dark Side somehow beating a dead serious Vapaad Mace, but it then has Anakin nearly losing to Cin's padawan.

You mean Cin Drallig? Anakin didn't nearly lose to her he blatantly overpowered her. As for cin Drallig He's noted to be very powerful Jedi who's trained Anakin and even then he was put on the ropes. Only managing to use Anakin's weight against him to knock him off balance.

He is less refined in his usage of power, I agree.

Good

Anyways, even though I don't 100% agree with everything here, I get your points and I don't find them dumb by any means. Kenobi Vs. Anakin has always been a doozy of a discussion.

Ofc. Thanks

@supreme101: but there are no Statements that sidious throw the fight and Stover said it sidious didn't throw the fight and that it does not make since for him to

@greysentinel365: B-b-but I thought this was your go to:

You site two measly guide pages and the senior novel (which dosen't even say that no less) against all the counter evidence not only the huge amount of guides as well as main storytelling one Vaders very own novel and the directionary and author statements. You's a hypocrite bro.

@supreme101:

You site two measly guide pages

Waaaaay more than that. Also your own sources don't back your point here.

senior novel (which dosen't even say that no less)

You haven't read it.

against all the counter evidence not only the huge amount of guides

In twenty years not a single source has stated Anakin was weaker.

as well as main storytelling one Vaders very own novel and the directionary and author statements.

All of which back my side not yours. You can't even interpret this stuff properly.

@greysentinel365:

Waaaaay more than that. Also your own sources don't back your point here.

Would love to see the waaaaay more, and how exactly do my sources, sources that are saying he was emotionally mentally hell one guy even mentioning the metaphorical dragon that poisoned him physically nerfed.

You haven't read it.

Show the quote saying that.

In twenty years not a single source has stated Anakin was weaker.

Yet mine do. Even Obi-Wan admitted he was off game😭

All of which back my side not yours. You can't even interpret this stuff properly.

Yeah yeah. So according to you broken emotions blind rage self doubt etc etc is "at full power and prime" in your case....sure thing lmao.

@supreme101:

how exactly do my sources, sources that are saying he was emotionally mentally hell one guy even mentioning the metaphorical dragon that poisoned him physically nerfed.

The dragon is dead and Anakin has completely given himself over to Sith fury. Your sources have stated that. That's the point.

The RotS novel goes to length the emphasize that Zonakin, KFV and MFV are in the same state.

Yet mine do. Even Obi-Wan admitted he was off game

Obi-Wan says no such thing lol.

Yeah yeah. So according to you broken emotions blind rage self doubt etc etc is "at full power and prime" in your case....sure thing lmao.

The blind rage is smothering the self doubt. It overtakes it all. Anakin during the duel is a hate filled killing machine who just wants to kill Obi-Wan. Everything else is gone.

@greysentinel365:

The dragon is dead and Anakin has completely given himself over to Sith fury. Your sources have stated that. That's the point.

And guess what his fury was still nerfing him he lost control of himself. He's not in proper control of his emotions. He can't utilize that power he has.

The RotS novel goes to length the emphasize that Zonakin, KFV and MFV are in the same state.

Me asks for a quote.........

Grey: he's not nerfed

Obi-Wan says no such thing lol.

In his very own novel which he narrates he says he was off game. this very sentence specifying properly defending himself means he wasn't fighting right

My duel with Vader was awful in its savagery. In the end, he was more determined to kill me than defend himself, and was blind with fury when I felled him. I left him maimed and burning on the shores of a lava river. To have dealt him a killing blow might have been the merciful thing to do, but I had no mercy for Vader.-Life and legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi

The blind rage is smothering the self doubt. It overtakes it all. Anakin during the duel is a hate filled killing machine who just wants to kill Obi-Wan. Everything else is gone.

So you outright admit he had blind rage and wasn't clearly his proper self(combat wise as well as emotionally) directly backing the statements saying he has no control over his emotions just prior to the duel even being broken at the realization of what he's committed. further evidenced by guides as well as directionary.

@supreme101:

He's not in proper control of his emotions.

Yes which led him to make stupid decisions on a small hill. He wasn't any weaker for it. The quote you posted even makes note of this being the "weakness", overconfidence.

He's not nerfed.

Me asks for a quote.........

Figure it out.

In his very own novel which he narrates he says he was off game.

Nope. In fact we know he's wrong as multiple sources state he's stronger than ever

He took Force LSD. That's what made him a 9. That's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine. It's still something you have to deal with.

Credit:https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/comments/5d8ovp/nic_gillard_just_revealed_that_there_are_9_forms/?st=ivljdm4d&sh=aec87fa6

Gallery

As the Clone Wars rage on, Anakin Skywalker becomes seduced by the dark side and betrays his fellow Jedi and all that he once held dear. Obi-Wan Kenobi must now battle his former Padawan, who has become the Jedi’s most formidable threat.

- RotS Photo Archive

Likewise the intent is of him to be at full power

INTERVIEWER: Who is the better swordfighter... Obi-Wan or Anakin?

GILLARD: At what point?

INTERVIEWER: At the end of the Clone Wars, so Revenge of the Sith.

GILLARD: It's so close. I mean it has to be Anakin. It has to be Anakin. How I did it, it's a bit like gaining enlightenment, going up through the levels. A bit like a yogi in India might stand on his head for ten years to gain enlightenment. If he dropped some acid he might see the same thing, but it's not good and it's not going to work. But it makes him potentially far more dangerous and that's how I played Anakin/Vader at that point. He's like a junkie. He's had all the training and then he's taken a drug and so potentially, he's far more dangerous than Obi at that point. He cheated his way in. So in that fight, to me, that's where I put him. He'd just done some heroin and he went at it.

INTERVIWER: I completely see what you're saying. Technically he should have been better than Obi [Gillard nods] but because he was a little whacked out on some H like you're saying, he couldn't focus his full potential.

GILLARD: His full potential is bubbling out of him, and that's fucking dangerous, shit. Because in those kinds of fights it's like a pro boxer. They don't get excited in there, they just knock them down and wait for the moment, and that's what Obi did all the way through.

https://www.youtube.com/live/WPcAJcvITqc?si=E_naQvNBQcJ7WX21

With his full potential in play "bubbling" out of him. So the idea he's nerfed is just false. Which is why not a single source has ever said it. Not a single source in two continuites in twenty years. Has flat said "Anakin was weaker". Because he wasn't.

My duel with Vader was awful in its savagery.In the end, he was more determined to kill me than defend himself,and was blind with fury when I felled him. I left him maimed and burning on the shores of a lava river. To have dealt him a killing blow might have been the merciful thing to do, but I had no mercy for Vader.-Life and legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi

This supports my point not your own. Note how it in no way states he was weaker. Only more determined to kill Obi and such make arrogant decisions.

@greysentinel365:

Yes which led him to make stupid decisions on a small hill. He wasn't any weaker for it. The quote you posted even makes note of this being the "weakness", overconfidence.

Nothing about that quote notes overconfidence Idk wth your readin

Figure it out.

Nope. In fact we know he's wrong as multiple sources state he's stronger than ever

Only two of those quotes mention that and you brought the same dource for the last two lol.

first one sure

Second dosen't explicitly say FP other sources say he had the dark side yet it didn't really help as he couldn't properly utilize it.

Third one literally contradicts itself with equality in the same sentence saying he was contstantly pushed back not to mention the full ness of they're abilities part being vague as that can be interpreted as using what capable power and skill he can.

For the last 2 you used the same one....why? Tho it even directly leaves out as to why Anakin lost.

As the Clone Wars rage on, Anakin Skywalker becomes seduced by the dark side and betrays his fellow Jedi and all that he once held dear. Obi-Wan Kenobi must now battle his former Padawan, who has become the Jedi’s most formidable threat.

- RotS Photo Archive

Literally backs nothing about him being prime...he became a formidable threat, gee I wonder why surely not because he stormed the temple and slaughtered the members of the order inside lmao. Anakin literally had statements of being the most powerful Jedi as well. Not to mention the fact while conflicted dogstomped Mace Windu in the ROTS game.(Not EU canon but had crap ton of Lucas involvement as well as cutscenes approved)

Likewise the intent is of him to be at full power

Bruh... Nick......NICK no disrespect to the guy this is a stunstman/stunt director, not a writer, story directory official,or an Author LOOOOL it's just him saying what he thinks as he admits. it dosen't even say he's far more powerful in itself key word "potentially" he contradicts himself saying his full potential was bubbling which (I'll take as hyperbole cuz that sounds ridiculous) out of him not to mention:

GILLARD: His full potential is bubbling out of him, and that's fucking dangerous, shit. Because in those kinds of fights it's like a pro boxer. They don't get excited in there, they just knock them down and wait for the moment, and that's what Obi did all the way through.

So it says Obi-Wan force power and strength wasn't the match but needing the right openings......

With his full potential in play "bubbling" out of him. So the idea he's nerfed is just false. Which is why not a single source has ever said it. Not a single source in two continuites in twenty years. Has flat said "Anakin was weaker". Because he wasn't.

Question how does lack of control in emotion as well as mental state effect a jedi? I'll wait

This supports my point not your own. Note how it in no way states he was weaker. Only more determined to kill Obi and such make arrogant decisions.

This directly signifies he wasn't fighting right. You saying he mad arrogant(basically bad decisions) would contribute to that.

@supreme101:

Nothing about that quote notes overconfidence Idk wth your readin

Lol think about the duel for half a second.

Second dosen't explicitly say FP other sources say he had the dark side yet it didn't really help as he couldn't properly utilize it.

It states that Anakin could call upon his "legendary" fighting skill and could now boost them with the dark side. Nothing notes him being hindered in that process.

Third one literally contradicts itself with equality in the same sentence saying he was contstantly pushed back not to mention the full ness of they're abilities part being vague as that can be interpreted as using what capable power and skill he can.

There's no contradiction lol. Also the opposite is stated in this quote. Fighting to the fullness of thier abilities is pretty clear. If they were in any way nerfed it wouldn't be their fullest lol.

For the last 2 you used the same one....why? Tho it even directly leaves out as to why Anakin lost.

Same one posted twice. If you didn't know the SG has generic quotes on standby for if guides and such are needed. If the same quote shows up in two different sources its due to the SG being fully confident in its validity.

Literally backs nothing about him being prime...he became a formidable threat, gee I wonder why surely not because he stormed the temple and slaughtered the members of the order inside lmao.

It proves he wasn't nerfed as Kenobi faced the most formidable threat.

Anakin literally had statements of being the most powerful Jedi as well. Not to mention the fact while conflicted dogstomped Mace Windu in the ROTS game.

Nothing notes he's conflicted in that fight. And also its a marathon fight with three stages. He didn't "dogstomp" him lol.

Bruh... Nick......NICK no disrespect to the guy this is a stunstman/stunt director, not a writer, story directory official,or an Author

Nick wrote the fights actually with full approval. You don't know anything about the RotS bts haha.

So it says Obi-Wan force power and strength wasn't the match but needing the right openings......

That's not what it says. I'm begining to see how you've reached the wack conclusions in this thread.

Question how does lack of control in emotion as well as mental state effect a jedi?

If he was actually conflicted in the fight it would. But he's not. He's fully given himself over to fury

Gallery

He shows "no remose" and is "utterly consumed"

You saying he mad arrogant(basically bad decisions) would contribute to that.

You're conflating large scale decisions and small scale fighting skill.

I get your argument but the problem i have with it is that we don't realy know how many jedi where in the temple at that moment. We do know that a lot of the Jedi-Masters where fighting on different planets. Also we can't forget that Anakin had the entire 501-st Legion with him and he at that point was complety boosted by the darkside. I'm not saying that he did not break a sweat but he probably has recoverd in the time he traveld to Mustafar.

@greysentinel365:

Lol think about the duel for half a second.

For my guides they say that....sure but that was spawned from inability to finish things. You can't keep saying vague stuff like this and not elaborate.

It states that Anakin could call upon his "legendary" fighting skill and could now boost them with the dark side. Nothing notes him being hindered in that process.

I mean sure but at the same time with other guides that completely elaborate not only on the "dark side' but Anakins mental and emotional deterioration not to mention further addition of novels unlike this guide this one seems very vague.

There's no contradiction lol. Also the opposite is stated in this quote. Fighting to the fullness of thier abilities is pretty clear. If they were in any way nerfed it wouldn't be their fullest lol.

I literally said what made it contradict itself that's in no way reliable.

Same one posted twice. If you didn't know the SG has generic quotes on standby for if guides and such are needed. If the same quote shows up in two different sources its due to the SG being fully confident in its validity.

That's no reason to post the same scan quote twice lol.

It proves he wasn't nerfed as Kenobi faced the most formidable threat.

Being named a formiddable threat wouldn't mean that in any way.

Nothing notes he's conflicted in that fight. And also its a marathon fight with three stages. He didn't "dogstomp" him lol.

Anakin Skywalker vs Mace Windu - Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith"3 stages" Okay and? Just look at the cutscenes.

Moments before the guy was distressed lacked clarity

The second they clash he easily knocks him to the floor.

knocks him on his ass again

Mace only landing blows when he's off guard or cheap shots

Nick wrote the fights actually with full approval. You don't know anything about the RotS bts haha.

>Brings no source.

This makes it quite clear it's george(skip to the end)

George did the screenplay for the movie tbh

Star Wars: Breaking Down the Duels - Revenge of the Sith - YouTube

While he did have parts those were suggestions which came to approval,he didn't write the entire thing not to mention this is just what he personally thinks as he says. He is not the complete Authority who did everything by himself.

That's not what it says. I'm begining to see how you've reached the wack conclusions in this thread.

I'm just reading what you bring bro bro. I don't only look at what you underline

GILLARD: His full potential is bubbling out of him, and that's fucking dangerous, shit. Because in those kinds of fights it's like a pro boxer. They don't get excited in there, they just knock them down and wait for the moment, and that's what Obi did all the way through.

First scan that's further elaborated with the ROTS commentary track he feels the emotion but lacks control what he was doing was blind rage.

Second scan: Please read it man it says him giving himself over to the DS mirrors his turmoil next

Again blind rage further elaborated

4th one literally one of my posts scans. mentions his self doubt.

How are you gonna sit here and say he wasn't nerfed yet bring material that says the opposite contradicting yourself?

He shows "no remose" and is "utterly consumed"

You might need to reread these bro

You're conflating large scale decisions and small scale fighting skill.

Decisions have a big role in the "small scale fighting" you refer to.

@supreme101:

You can't keep saying vague stuff like this and not elaborate.

If you've made a thread like this I'm sure you've gone over all the material you should know what I'm referring to. Then again if you'd gone over all of it you wouldn't have made it.

I mean sure

Thankyou.

I literally said what made it contradict itself that's in no way reliable.

Not a contradiction.

That's no reason to post the same scan quote twice lol.

It is. Because it gives it even more weight as the Story Group sees it as reliable enough to use repeatedly.

Being named a formiddable threat wouldn't mean that in any way.

It actually would as Sidious and Yoda are stated the most powerful Light and Dark side users in that moment in time by the majority of material. Yet MFV is more dangerous than them.

Moments before the guy was distressed lacked clarity

This seems to be the foundational issue you're having here. Yes moments before he lacked clarity...... then he gets over that and steps in to fight.

Anakin was experiencing doubt and such before the Mustafar duel. During it he has none. He is in full rage mode fighting to "his fullest".

The second they clash he easily knocks him to the floor.

Mace was trying to talk him down.

Brings no source.

Okay. I cannot be bothered to dig through the 2 hour long "in a minute" documentary but Lucas literally says he writes "they fight" and then Gillard does the rest.

This makes it quite clear it's george(skip to the end)

Geogre clears what Gillard has written and made before it goes in. But this also shows it has his stamp of approval and he gave Gillard the freedom for it.

First scan that's further elaborated with the ROTS commentary track he feels the emotion but lacks control what he was doing was blind rage.

Exactly. So he's not nerfed.

Second scan: Please read it man it says him giving himself over to the DS mirrors his turmoil next

You didn't read it all haha. The turmoil is referring to when he took down the Sep leaders. During the duel it states it personifies him with violent eruptions while all he cares about is buried. Again your stuck on how he felt before the fight. Which doesn't matter when he's completely different during the fight

Again blind rage further elaborated

Take this as a concession on this one.

4th one literally one of my posts scans. mentions his self doubt.

Glad you admitted you haven't read your own scans. it explcitely mentions he gives himself over to fury. Which as firther elaborated in the novel burns away all his doubt and other feelings. Hence why he shows "no remorse" and such. This quote debunks your thread if only you'd read it to the end.

You might need to reread these bro

You need to read things to the end.

Decisions have a big role in the "small scale fighting" you refer to.

Not really. Anakin is stated to be fighting "perfectly" and such by Gillard and other soruces. In fact some state that the only misplay they made in the entire duel was the high ground jump.

@greysentinel365:

If you've made a thread like this I'm sure you've gone over all the material you should know what I'm referring to. Then again if you'd gone over all of it you wouldn't have made it.

I went over the available and most definite clear cut storytelling and guides I could get. I ask you to elaborate and you do the exact opposite and avoid it. Why are you ducking me?

Not a contradiction.

Nick says full potential and possibvly rivals obi wan then says what would be the exact opposite and since you hold him so high here's quotes from him saying he wasn't amped and was most definitely nerfed.

In the end Anakin just makes a mistake, he getstoo angry and makes a mistakeand Obi doesn't make mistakes-ROTS dvd commentary

Hayden and I used to walk to this restaurant at night in Bondi and and there was a big grass slope and that was the quickest way but he fell over it he fell the first time we went he's upended

himself and slided down the bank and said I'm never going that way again and

it's in in my head I thoughtoh he's you know and Vader is bad on the slope

-Nick Gillard Star Wars Theory

Soooooooo....what now then.

It is. Because it gives it even more weight as the Story Group sees it as reliable enough to use repeatedly.

What about weight from the Authors Lucas officials the amount of other guides that say the same thing as well as the novels?

It actually would as Sidious and Yoda are stated the most powerful Light and Dark side users in that moment in time by the majority of material. Yet MFV is more dangerous than them.

Anakin was more powerful than yoda since before KFV. As well as Obi included.

This seems to be the foundational issue you're having here. Yes moments before he lacked clarity...... then he gets over that and steps in to fight.

bruh Anakin literally stopped him out of reflex just as he did in the movie you see he's emotionally distressed then right after completely questions what he did.

Anakin was experiencing doubt and such before the Mustafar duel. During it he has none. He is in full rage mode fighting to "his fullest".

Your own scans debunked you. Nor wa she at his fullets most guides as well as official storytelling indicate that.

Mace was trying to talk him down.

So was Anakin. not to mention we literally see him push back only for Anakin to knock him back as a counter. So he was definitely trying.

Not to mention Anakin was completely dominating him as I'll say again. Mace only got blows in through cheap shots. While he was getting ragdolled and knocked around whenever Anakin was on guard.

Okay. I cannot be bothered to dig through the 2 hour long "in a minute" documentary but Lucas literally says he writes "they fight" and then Gillard does the rest.

Find it and display it cuz even his own words in the vid didn't say that.

Geogre clears what Gillard has written and made before it goes in. But this also shows it has his stamp of approval and he gave Gillard the freedom for it.

In the vid he literally mentions what george wants he puts in lol. Gillard did assist in things I'll admit but the writing wasn't all him.

Exactly. So he's not nerfed.

No proper control=no proper utilization and sloppiness. This is both a thing in both SW and real life.

Let's not forget my weaknesses scan too.

You didn't read it all haha. The turmoil is referring to when he took down the Sep leaders. During the duel it states it personifies him with violent eruptions while all he cares about is buried. Again your stuck on how he felt before the fight. Which doesn't matter when he's completely different during the fight

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT IF HE DOSENT HAVE TURMOIL IT WOULDN'T BE MENTIONED IN THE VERY SENTENCE OF WHERE IT DOSEN"T MAKE THE CONNECTION.

Take this as a concession on this one.

All the sources I brought literally mentios his hatred caused him great weaknesses.

Glad you admitted you haven't read your own scans. it explcitely mentions he gives himself over to fury. Which as firther elaborated in the novel burns away all his doubt and other feelings. Hence why he shows "no remorse" and such. This quote debunks your thread if only you'd read it to the end.

Can you like...properly interpret. "In rage and self doubt Anakin gives himself over to fury". Then attacks Obi-Wan Like it's not hard bro.

You need to read things to the end.

You need to properly intepret what your scans say cuz you contradicted yourself bud.

Not really. Anakin is stated to be fighting "perfectly" and such by Gillard and other soruces. In fact some state that the only misplay they made in the entire duel was the high ground jump.

Hmmm too bad galliard says the opposite in my quote Along with the vast amount of sources ranging from guides lucas novels etc. But look on the bright side he's not nerfed in Mickey Mouse.

@supreme101:

I went over the available and most definite clear cut storytelling and guides I could get.

Wow haha.

Why are you ducking me?

Because this is a closed subject and has been for nearly a decade. I see no need to take this seriously. I'm more interested in you figuring this out yourself.

Nick says full potential and possibvly rivals obi wan then says what would be the exact opposite

Not if you're familiar with the larger lore of how Anakin works as the chosen one and how flashes of brilliance work within the Legends power framework.

In the end Anakin just makes a mistake, he getstoo angry and makes a mistakeand Obi doesn't make mistakes-ROTS dvd commentary

Doesn't comment on power. Actually serves my point as he makes it clear Anakin only became too angry and made a mistake in the last 10 seconds of this fight.

Hayden and I used to walk to this restaurant at night in Bondi and and there was a big grass slope and that was the quickest way but he fell over it he fell the first time we went he's upended himself and slided down the bank and said I'm never going that way again and it's in in my head I thoughtoh he's you know and Vader is bad on the slope

-Nick Gillard Star Wars Theory

Funny story. Doesn't really have any relevence here haha.

what now then.

Well one quote was useless and the other backs me same as it did a decade ago.

What about weight from the Authors Lucas officials the amount of other guides that say the same thing as well as the novels?

You mean the ones that have never stated Anakin was weaker on MF.

Anakin was more powerful than yoda since before KFV. As well as Obi included.

Sidious and Yodas quotes outweigh KFV and MFVs in number as of the senate fight. I believe last time there was a roundup it was 15-9 in the Masters favour. Mind you most of Anakin quotes are Gillard and you don't like those ones...... and also they refer to MFV. So if you want to use those its an auto concession.

bruh Anakin literally stopped him out of reflex just as he did in the movie you see he's emotionally distressed then right after completely questions what he did.

If you wish to use the game then the "reflex" part doesn't fly. He has already made his choice to kill Windu who he feels is murdering his friend and threatening his wife. This is ironically why it was cut from the movie.

Your own scans debunked you.

Mirror.

So was Anakin. not to mention we literally see him push back only for Anakin to knock him back as a counter. So he was definitely trying.

No indcation he was going all out. Mace is still trying to talk him down all the way in phase 3.

Find it and display it cuz even his own words in the vid didn't say that.

The script only contains "they fight"

Nick choeros everything with George as part of every step. Everything he does is checked and cleared he also is stated to work with George on the level systems and such. Where notably Anakin is placed as a 9 and no distinction is ever made between Zonakin, KFV or MFV in terms of placement.

Let's not forget my weaknesses scan too.

Your own scan makes it clear he doesn't make mistakes. The mustafar duel takes up the bulk of the stunt time on RotS. He's clearly referring to MFV. KFV never even gets a proper fight. They made it up in Nick shed in one night because George wanted Nick to have a cameo. So any Gillard quotes on Anakin being a 9 refer to MFV.

WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT IF HE DOSENT HAVE TURMOIL IT WOULDN'T BE MENTIONED IN THE VERY SENTENCE OF WHERE IT DOSEN"T MAKE THE CONNECTION.

Cute.

As defined by Oxford dictionary To "give yourself over":

phrasal verb. give yourself over/up to something. ​to spend all your time doing something or thinking about something; to allow something to completely control your life.

So Anakin gives himself over to Sith Fury. Nothing else is present. Not doubt or anything else.

Likewise to be "consumed" is to "completely fill your mind of". Anakin is "consumed" by rage leaving nothing else. The quotes are making this very clear you just can't understand them.

All the sources I brought literally mentios his hatred caused him great weaknesses.

Once again, in 20 years there has not been a sinlge quote that inidacted MFV to been any weaker whatsoever. You can misinterpret about as many as you want. They don't say that.

"In rage andself doubtAnakin gives himself over to fury".

"Gives himself" already addressed above.

Again there's not much to go over here. You're just blatantly ignoring intent and misinterpreting quotes here.

@greysentinel365:

Wow haha.

There's a certain scan that you glorfified I can pull up rn.

Because this is a closed subject and has been for nearly a decade. I see no need to take this seriously. I'm more interested in you figuring this out yourself.

This is a semi concession bro your continnuuing the argument while not bringing up anything that proves your point.

Not if you're familiar with the larger lore of how Anakin works as the chosen one and how flashes of brilliance work within the Legends power framework.

Obi-Wan can match FP Anakin people.

Doesn't comment on power. Actually serves my point as he makes it clear Anakin only became too angry and made a mistake in the last 10 seconds of this fight.

Read my next quote. Nor oes that serve as any point.

Funny story. Doesn't really have any relevence here haha.

Do I really have to spoonfeed this to you?

Hayden and I used to walk to this restaurant at night in Bondi and and there was a big grass slope and that was the quickest way but he fell over it he fell the first time we went he's upended himself and slided down the bank and said I'm never going that way again and it's in in my head I thoughtoh he's you know and Vader is bad on the slope

Well one quote was useless and the other backs me same as it did a decade ago.

nothing backed you lol

You mean the ones that have never stated Anakin was weaker on MF.

My post and scans in my argument alr show that.

No indcation he was going all out. Mace is still trying to talk him down all the way in phase 3.

Anakin even said don't force me to kill you. So he was holding back if anything while conflicted at that.

Nick choeros everything with George as part of every step. Everything he does is checked and cleared he also is stated to work with George on the level systems and such. Where notably Anakin is placed as a 9 and no distinction is ever made between Zonakin, KFV or MFV in terms of placement.

Since George was also involved and did everything as well....shouldn't it also be words that matter? Not that he was reliable anyway since he contradicted himself and says the opposite again in two more quotes.

Anakin on the balcony contemplating what he has done,this is the first time he actually has a chance to think about what it is that has happened, by himself, and,the tear here says that he knows what he's done, but he has now committed himself to a path, that he may not agree with but he is going to go on anyway, its theone moment that says he is self aware, that he's rationalising all his behaviour, he's doing terrible things, but in the end he really knows the truth, he knows that he's evil now and there's nothing he can do about it, its really the moment where I think the Pathos of getting stuck in that suit is real,if he had to do it over he probably wouldn't do it, but he cant stop it now, he kinda can see, the rest of the movie, not in terms of him being defeated by Obi-Wan, but in terms of him going down a path that Padme cant follow, and the consequence that's gonna have, the fact that he's gonna have to battle, he knows that that point this is all gonna end up in a fight between him and Obi-Wan, he knows that Padme may not buy into this new reality, and eventually she is gonna sort of find out the truth. He made a pact with the Devil and now he's become the Devil, but its not a joyful thing for him, its a sad thing-GL

Your own scan makes it clear he doesn't make mistakes. The mustafar duel takes up the bulk of the stunt time on RotS. He's clearly referring to MFV. KFV never even gets a proper fight. They made it up in Nick shed in one night because George wanted Nick to have a cameo. So any Gillard quotes on Anakin being a 9 refer to MFV.

No scan said that nor implies it.

So Anakin gives himself over to Sith Fury. Nothing else is present. Not doubt or anything else.

Likewise to be "consumed" is to "completely fill your mind of". Anakin is "consumed" by rage leaving nothing else. The quotes are making this very clear you just can't understand them.

You can't even read your own scans.

Once again, in 20 years there has not been a sinlge quote that inidacted MFV to been any weaker whatsoever. You can misinterpret about as many as you want. They don't say that.

You can ignore the quotes all you want, you can ignore established lore of rage causing his disbalance but it does nothing for you.

"Gives himself" already addressed above.

Wasn't peoperly addressed you outright disregarded it if anything.

Again there's not much to go over here. You're just blatantly ignoring intent and misinterpreting quotes here.

Your entire argument has been destroyed. Just a blend of lies,will ignorance, and cope.

A majority of your argument was saying things with a "trust me bro" ignoring the other quotes from guides and novels especially the ones saying he was mentally and emotionally unstable. Which would without doubt effect his combat as said.

@supreme101:

Obi-Wan can match FP Anakin people.

Didn't say that. You have no idea how any of this works haha.

Read my next quote. Nor oes that serve as any point.

Which was meaningless.

Do I really have to spoonfeed this to you?

OMG you're trying to use a joke as a point. This is why I'm keeping this going.

nothing backed you lol

Wow this is actually going over your head. This is great.

My post and scans in my argument alr show that.

They debunk you actually and you can't realise that. You're just barrelling through with your headcanon regardless. You can't engage any of these points or engage in introspection of how you've reached these false conclusions.

Anakin even said don't force me to kill you. So he was holding back if anything while conflicted at that.

Phase 3 they're both going all out. Anakin isn't conflicted lol.

Since George was also involved and did everything as well....shouldn't it also be words that matter?

Yep. As for your quote

Anakin on the balcony

All you had to do was read the first four words to realise its not referring to him during the duel haha.

You can't even read your own scans.

Proceeds to post scan that backs me word for word. Like the "gives himself" is right there.

You can ignore the quotes all you want, you can ignore established lore of rage causing his disbalance but it does nothing for you.

Mirror.

Wasn't peoperly addressed you outright disregarded it if anything.

You didn't even address it you skipped it.

A majority of your argument was saying things with a "trust nme bro" ignoring the other quotes from guides and novels especially the ones saying he was mentally and emotionally unstable.

I've addressed every single scan you've posted and explained why they do not say what you headcanon them as saying.

@greysentinel365:

Didn't say that. You have no idea how any of this works haha.

According to Gillard he was😪

Which was meaningless.

How is what he said meaningless. You wanna use one contradicting quote that exaggerates but the other things he says are meaningless...do you hear yourself.

OMG you're trying to use a joke as a point. This is why I'm keeping this going.

What part of that is a joke and this is very ironic considering the absurd quote from nick you used.

Wow this is actually going over your head. This is great.

..............

They debunk you actually and you can't realise that. You're just barrelling through with your headcanon regardless. You can't engage any of these points or engage in introspection of how you've reached these false conclusions.

No...it's legit just spoonfed to you you just can't accewpt that apparently.

Phase 3 they're both going all out. Anakin isn't conflicted lol.

He was just prior as shown he even questions what he did and breaks down. Anakin wasn't even trying. Mace only ever got hits in on a holding back Anakin through cheap shots.

Yep. As for your quote

I knew that. Read the entire thing I underlined that part as a focus of his mental state.

Proceeds to post scan that backs me word for word. Like the "gives himself" is right there.

You also know what else it says. That he has inner turmoil and self doubt. let's not forget that even if he did his anger is stated as a weakness to him. Good job.

You didn't even address it you skipped it.

What did I not address.

I've addressed every single scan you've posted and explained why they do not say what you headcanon them as saying.

Debunk every single scan I brought cuz this is absolutely ridiculous. The info is being spoon fed to you yet you smack it away cuz you find it distasteful.