The Juggernaut on Apokolips.

To rid Earth of the unstoppable menace once and for all, Doctor Strange flings him into another dimension the way he did the Hulk when he became mindless. A disruption of events during the casting results in Marko being sent to the homeworld of Darkseid. Rules:

1. New Gods are human-sized and their things human-scaled in their own dimension.

2. Classic versions. No true form or etc. Darkseid can use avatars but when the man himself appears it's indeed him.

3. Darkseid's abilities are measured by the times after Crisis the character was respected, so it's not like when he was Jobberseid, but not like when he casually squashed pre-Crisis Kryptonians, either (though IIRC officially the New Gods weren't affected by Crisis. But to help even things out I'm not accounting for that fact).

4. The Omega Effect can't be on full (erasure-mode) power. If it were it presumably would bring the power of Cyttorak into the conflict, making it pretty much another fight entirely.

Will someone finally stop the Juggernaut or will he rampage his way through even Darkseid's realm?

Juggs wins pretty much

He never "casually squashed pre-Crisis Kryptonians" either, even with his GDS amp.

Darkseid Avatar plus heavy hitters (Desaad, Kalibak, Furries etc) should overwhelm Juggernaut, but if they can't then they could probably bfr him into the sun.

Classic Juggs consistently kicked Thor's ass over and over alongside even taking on the Godblast and living, there's absolutely no chance that Jobberseid with mid-tier at best goons are going to do better in that regard.

@professorrespect: Didn't Savage Hulk stalemate classic Juggs. Also even if they can't beat him they can bfr him

Yeah. Seid isn't Hulk though.

When has Seid BFR'd anyone in combat within the period of time the OP is using?

@professorrespect: that era of Darkseid teleported Superman away constantly.

Early Post Crisis? Doubt he was throwing that out in combat etc

@professorrespect: define “early.” Darkseid teleported Superman away when Granny stole Beautiful Dreamer’s baby and after he gave clues that Superman was being antagonized by Mxyzptlk off the top of my head.

then there’s DeSaad.

Was that in combat? That's the issue there. Fake DesaadSeid doesn't really count unless you want to say he'll try to do the same here.

@professorrespect: Aren't Desaad and Kalibak high-tiers?

@professorrespect: DeSaad did it to Doomsday.

Neither are high-tiers. Kalibak in particular gets wrecked by anything half-decent.

In combat or in general?

@professorrespect: Thanks prof. But isn't Desaad pretty good with prep time? Wouldn't the others be able to "occupy" Juggernaut while Desaad found a way to beat him? I guess the others wouldn't last long at all, but it's something to consider.

He's more of a creepy tech guy. I honestly don't know what would be there to stop Juggs unless we go the cheap option and act like a BFR is going to be anything worth mentioning as a victory.

Ah, poor Darkseid. He sure has fallen in esteem hasn't he? XD

@professorrespect: why does it matter?

Because this is a combat encounter

There's a couple of old threads where people thought he could stomp Hulk lol. That was funny.

Thank you! There's some pretty impressive stuff there though, even if they are few and far in between. I feel like he may be able to capitalize off a distraction. Controlling the Firestorm Matrix is no light feat. It's highly improbable, but he could so something besides BFR.

Isn't he still pretty consistently around Superman's level? I doubt "stomp" is the right word, but he could beat Hulk.

@boutatakeanl: Yeah, given that I typically place New Earth Superman above Savage Hulk, anyone whose consistently able to keep pace with someone at that level should probably be able to beat Savage Hulk. Definitely not a stomp though.

Eh, I wouldn't put Superman above Savage Hulk. Hulk is consistently above Thor and Superman vs. Thor is already a solid fight. Supes's only edge is speed, but he has the stats to harm Thor, so he would be able to capitalize on his speed advantage. I'd only see BFR as a viable option for Superman to "defeat" Hulk. I'm curious as to why you think Superman is above Savage Hulk.

@professorrespect: IIRC, before Crisis, Superboy and Supergirl (or two other Kryptonians or Daxamites) burned off a disguise he was wearing and then he very easily beat them.

What was going on here?

Juggernaut gets stomped the moment anyone worth a damn notices his presence and warns the big guys.

Come on now.

Did Thor not find ways to deal with Juggernaut even if he couldn't beat him head-on? Darkseid is more intelligent and much more of a prep-guy than Thor, so he could do it much more easily. And that's working under the assumption that Darkseid is equal or inferior to Thor and not his superior. He certainly has more hax-y powers than Thor.

And mid-tier goons? Classic Juggernaut struggled with the X-Men!

Do you consider the classic X-Men superior to the Female Furies, the Deep Six, Kalibak, Kanto, Desaad, and the likes? Individually, maybe (that's a huge maybe for some of these), all together, not even close.

Darkseid>Classic Hulk/Joe Fixit/Professor Hulk/Green Scar/World Breaker (basically any non-amped classically-powered Hulk)

I'm willing to admit Thor being a match for Darkseid on account of his multiple abilities, experience and Kirby's intentions for the powers of both characters, but Hulk just doesn't hold a candle to Darkseid. What's his answer for Omega Beams, much less any of the hax Darkseid occasionally displayed?

Even in his jobbiest moments Darkseid was on the level of the Hulk, and at his best far surpassed him.

Darkseid teleported people around all the time, like Tifa already said. Why would he not do it here? In fact, early Post-Crisis is probably the peak of him using teleportation to get rid of unwanted people. You mention him not doing it in combat, but that's just because he didn't fight very often. Can you name a situation outside of the awful Hunter/Prey jobbing where he got beaten in his home turf?

Darkseid is better than Juggernaut at everything except invulnerability, so there's no way Juggernaut would fairly beat Darkseid in combat, much less solo Apokolips. Between the elite warriors with superpowers, hordes of different Parademons and arsenals of planet-busting weaponry, Juggernaut would be completely out of his depth. Even assuming that both Darkseid and Boom Tubes were out of the equation, Apokolips is certainly full of methods to get rid of Juggernaut, throw him into space, trap him somewhere, etc

And that's assuming that there aren't methods or characters in Apokolips that could bypass Juggernaut's invulnerability. Because almost certainly there are.

@ouroborik: What's with this necroing of threads? You say this thread is a "mismatch" which would be against the rules to bump, but you still do it?

Darkseid>Classic Hulk/Joe Fixit/Professor Hulk/Green Scar/World Breaker (basically any non-amped classically-powered Hulk)

??? Even Prof Hulk was a punch for punch equal with Supes in a canon crossover

I don't think I need to show all the times Supes has matched or beaten Seid. Thor was also fine after being Omega Beamed by him in the same crossover and DS was brought to one knee by a blast from Surfer and Storm.

Even in his jobbiest moments Darkseid was on the level of the Hulk, and at his best far surpassed him.

At his "jobbiest" he was getting bloodied by Batman, and his best was nowhere near WBH, who was vaping peers to his Savage self along with a planet with the shockwave of his clash.

Beating Juggernaut could require some serious teamwork. If the helmet can be removed (which won't be easy), any of their New Gods with telepathy could end the fight.

@hatsonmelo:

What's with this necroing of threads?

Commenting in threads that are months old is considered "necroing" now? What do you want me to do, just comment front page battles that don't interest me the least bit? No, thank you. And I certainly can't create new versions of these matches because the rules specifically forbid that, so here we are.

??? Even Prof Hulk was a punch for punch equal with Supes in a canon crossover

1- Hulk lost that fight fair and square. He clearly wasn't equal. And Superman didn't even use his powers with any finesse, just pure slugfest.

2- Even if DC vs Marvel can be considered canon, it is completely riddled with PIS. Unless you think Storm beating Wonder Woman in a few lightning blasts is legit, or Captain Marvel being unable to lift a Ferris Wheel.

I don't think I need to show all the times Supes has matched or beaten Seid.

Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid and Superman? I've read all their fights and Superman won without prep or context a total of one (1) time, the crappy "Apokolips Now" instance.

Early John Byrne fight? Arguably not even Darkseid but Desaad in disguise, Superman opened the fight by blasting "Darkseid" with his own beams and severly weakening him.

Superman/Batman? Prep and outside help, Darkseid got hit by his own Omega Beams and dragged into the Sun before getting a chance to fight.

Most others were wins for Darkseid or interrupted without a winner. I don't recall any other time where Darkseid actually lost, but if there was, it was because of context. As I said, I've seen them all and came to the conclusion that Darkseid was decisively superior.

Thor was also fine after being Omega Beamed by him in the same crossover and DS was brought to one knee by a blast from Surfer and Storm.

Are you seriously using DC vs Marvel as the whole basis of your argument? Done with that.

At his "jobbiest" he was getting bloodied by Batman,

He was literally depowered there. His powers were gone. Can I use Bruce Banner low-showings for the Hulk too? Except I wouldn't even need to because Hulk has many more low-showings than Darkseid without being depowered.

and his best was nowhere near WBH, who was vaping peers to his Savage self along with a planet with the shockwaveof his clash.

Isn't there a ridiculous amount of context to that scene? Magical wishmaking that somehow made Red She-Hulk strong enough to match WBH?

Either way, you'll notice I never said Darkseid is stronger than the Hulk, I said he is more powerful. He wouldn't be beating Hulk in H2H, he would be blasting him away. Unlike Superman, Hulk can't fly to dodge beams and such.

Darkseid has desintegrated Kalibak with his touch (who's as strong as any of those guys who got vaped by the WBH/RSH clash) and his Omega Beams have atomized Lobo and Cyborg Superman, Lobo being roughly equal to Superman and the Cyborg clearly superior. I don't see Hulk besting that.

Jaggernurt gots destroyed lol at the cope.

@ouroborik:

Commenting in threads that are months old is considered "necroing" now?

Yes? The thread is 11 months old and no one has commented on it since. By definition the thread is dead, you necroed it.

What do you want me to do, just comment front page battles that don't interest me the least bit?

At least a thread that is within the past 100 pages, and if this battle is a "stomp" it shouldn't be interesting and is again, against the rules to bump if it's a supposed mismatch.

And I certainly can't create new versions of these matches because the rules specifically forbid that, so here we are.

"Juggernaut and the X-Men raid Apokolips", there. You can't create the same thread, but you can create a similar thread.

Hulk lost that fight fair and square. He clearly wasn't equal. And Superman didn't even use his powers with any finesse, just pure slugfest.

The winner of the fight was decided by a fanvote so his victory doesn't count, only the description of their relative power without audience influence (punch for punch equal). If Hulk had won the fanvote I would also discount his victory. Also, Supes used HV, said Hulk almost stood up to everything he had, and that his jaw was aching afterwards.

Even if DC vs Marvelcanbe considered canon, it is completely riddled with PIS. Unless you think Storm beating Wonder Woman in a few lightning blasts is legit, or Captain Marvel being unable to lift a Ferris Wheel.

There's no if, it's 100% canon. 1st instance was decided by fanvotes and WW is explicitly vulnerable to electricty. In the Shazam instance Billy literally says he could lift it but can't afford even a moment to waste. Regular comics are riddled with far worse instances anyway.

Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid and Superman? I've read all their fights and Superman won without prep or context a total of one (1) time, the crappy "Apokolips Now" instance.

That was the only definitive one, but he had the upperhand and matched him numerous other times along with having statements of parity. I'll post them if need be.

Are you seriously using DC vs Marvel as the whole basis of your argument? Done with that.

Why would I not use the only canonical fight Darkseid had with a Marvel character? I'm not sure what your argument is based on, quantifiable showings?

He was literally depowered there. His powers were gone. Can I use Bruce Banner low-showings for the Hulk too?

No, because only Darkseid's omega powers were gone. He still had his stats (manhandling Batman afterwards and taking punches from Supes).

Isn't there a ridiculous amount of context to that scene? Magical wishmaking that somehow made Red She-Hulk strong enough to match WBH?

What does that have to do with WBH vaping Hulk lvl peers with a shockwave?

he would be blasting him away.

Hulk would tank.

Darkseid has desintegrated Kalibak with his touch (who's as strong as any of those guys who got vaped by the WBH/RSH clash) and his Omega Beams have atomized Lobo and Cyborg Superman

They never vaped Henshaw, but they've been tanked by him and others.

Anyway, direct contact can't be compared to a shockwave, both Lobo and Henshaw have been trashed by Supes, and WBH isn't an inconsistent mess like DS is.

The helmet is coming off and then either Granny brainwashes Juggernaut, or Dr. Bedlam attacks with telepathy or possibly even Darkseid does (He’s never displayed it but it was heavily implied when Mister Miracle no-sold Sleez).

But yeah Juggernaut is going to solo an entire planet of supers, including Pythia in her own domain.

@hatsonmelo: Lobo was ”trashed” by Eclipso Superman who has shown the ability to power up those he possesses (and Superman’s heatvision which was previously no-sold by Lobo did actual damage when Superman was Eclipsed).

The head bonk is questionable if Lobo was KO’d or not. Jurgens ain’t saying but he did mention via email that the issue was rushed and Superman isn’t stronger than Lobo and M’Onel combined.

If you’re referring to Superman punching Lobo into orbit, that was BFR (which Lobo has also done to Superman) and Superman was powered up by Kryptonite-X.

Lobo beat the crap out of a rookie Superman who was willing to kill due to the Eradicator influencing him. Lobo also tackled and overpowered Superman when he tried to catch Brainiac. A fight between the two is more even than you’d like to admit.

EDIT: just remembered, Juggernaut was KO’d by Mantis’ anti-matter without his helmet in Access Unlimited

EDIT 2: Also Superman went toe to toe with Juggernaut.

@professorrespect:

Hey Prof. Sorry for the late reply but the dude who accused me of "necroing" threads apparently flagged me as well, so I've been unable to post for the entire weekend.

Just for the sake of it, and because I had an actual reply planned before I got flagged out of pettiness, I'm gonna reply anyway just to this one comment. A lot of this is "agree to disagree" scenario and since the other user has already soured the whole thing for me, I won't be turning ours into a full-on debate. Plus, I think Tifa has already said in a very summarized way all I wanted to say and presented a great argument. So thanks @tifalockhart you truly are one of the greatest!

But I'll address some stuff.

Thor back in the day with Juggs either had to strip his force-field/aura (which Seid can't do).

Why can't he do that? What's the rule for Juggernaut's force-field?

He gets no prep here though?

The prompt is that Juggernaut gets dropped on Apokolips. I think Darkseid on Apokolips can safely avoid Juggernaut for a while and come up with something.

He can just transport himself with his Omega Beams into the secret garden inside Apokolips and stay there coming up with something, a strategy he already used in the past.

In fact he could teleport Juggernaut himself into the garden and Juggernaut's powers would probably be nullified there, since Darkseid's own Omega Beams were useless there.

Seid doesn't use those powers though, certainly not in conventional fights anyway

Did you read those instances? The X-Men typically did no tangible damage to him, the only thing that saved them typically was removing the helmet for TP purposes which as time went on became harder and harder to do.

Apokolips is a planet of battle-hardened gods. If the X-Men could do it, so can they.

Absolute cope

Based on....nothing.

I guess this is where we reach pure "agree to disagree" territory.

I just showed you several scenes scenes of Darkseid owning high-tier characters without breaking a sweat. I can also show you scenes of him no-selling a punch from Lobo and desintegrating him, casually smacking around Wonder Woman (which becomes kind of redundant after the Lobo thing), scaring Joker who had a fraction of Mxy's power still inside him, etc.

To me it's clear as day that Darkseid consistently performs at a level above the Hulk. Almost all his low-showings are related to Superman fights, and even then he has as many victories as losses against Supes.

By comparison, Hulk jobs way more (how many times has Wolverine stalemated him again?) and the hype around him isn't nearly on the level of Darkseid's hype. Hulk gets hyped but he still struggles with pretty much any named hero that comes his way. Darkseid pretty much doesn't job to anyone except Superman.

Tanking them like Sups and numerous others have.

Numerous others? Such as?

It's pretty much only Superman who can tank the beams and he can rarely tank them without consequence. Only two instances I can think of where Darkseid blasted Superman with serious intent and failed to do significant damage, one Superman was partially amped, the other Darkseid won the bout anyway.

It is rather amusing that you say so much about Seid's incredible stats (and then just don't show anything) then immediately resort to BFR. If his stats as regular Seid are so impressive, why go into this?

Because the point I was trying to make is that Darkseid has a lot of options, which is why I was defending this as a guanranteed victory in the first place.

This excuse works if you ignore any fight Seid has had in N52/Rebirth where he wasn't also doing BFR's. At some point you kinda have to admit that he just isn't written with that as a tendency

I was talking about Pre-Flashpoint exclusively. I'll be the first to admit that Post-Flashpoint Darkseid was a disappointment from his very first story arc.

Classic Juggs dominated Thor, Seid jobs to Superman in virtually every incarnation that isn't amped. Not really a comparable situation there.

Once again, disagree.

Most fights where Superman beat Darkseid had context, the same kind of context I assume the fights between Thor and the Juggernaut needed for Thor to win.

For the couple of fights where Superman was matching Darkseid without help, I'm sure Juggernaut has just as bad or worse.

Why would they use planet-busting weapons on their own planet?

It was just an example. I'm not saying they would use planet-busting weapons against Juggernaut, I'm saying that a civilization with access to planet-busting weapons must surely have weapons to deal with guys like Juggs.

Right, so Apokolips is epically armed but we're going right to BFR antics again lol.

I mean, when I mentioned planet-busting weapons your first instinct was to say they wouldn't use them. Now we're addressing BFR and you're criticising that too.

How can they win then?

Name some thanks

Father Box negating the force-field?

Teleporting Juggernaut into Pythia's garden?

Darkseid building a device specifically to negate the force-field? He has built more impressive stuff.

Oh, so now the Nutty professor is backing up the Juggernaut here, even with the odds stacked against him? I thought he was a jobber hmmmmmmm.... Lol

Seid solos

All of Apokilips tramples him so hard that Cyttorak is gonna be facepalming himself into the next century saying "Thats the dude who I chose as my Avatar"?????

@archangelofrhea: depends on which character he likes more, gotta defend those biases

@professorrespect: Superman saved himself from being killed by Lobo by faking his own death. Even if you say the DC 1st retconned that, a punch from Lobo “hurt” by Superman’s own admission yet it did nothing to Darkseid.

Like I said, the helmet is coming off and then Juggernaut’s vulnerability to telepathy will be his downfall. Darkseid has a habit of knowing things he shouldn’t, like Rudy Jones was Parasite pre-Crisis, or that Mxyzptlk was the mastermind Superman was after, or that Silver Surfer was Norrin Radd.

@professorrespect:

Quick replies since I have some time and your reply was pretty short too:

First of all, I think you're conflating Pre and Post-Flashpoint Darkseid too much and making your arguments based as much on Post-Flashpoint Darkseid as Pre-Flashpoint.

I'm talking about Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid exclusively, the New God who schemed on Apokolips, created tech and such, didn't choose to fight very often and had very clear hax powers.

Post-Flashpoint Darkseid is a brick Justice League villain who just doesn't compare in portrayal.

It basically never comes down bar Thor once using his hammer in a very specific manner to remove it.

Sounds doable for Apokolips.

So we're just assuming that Darkseid hides in his castle while his goons have to hold him off? Doesn't sound very confident there. While I'm also confident Seid wouldn't go by himself, the idea that he would avoid the threat completely is more of a Thanos play than a Seid one.

That's completely a Darkseid plan. He is (was) first and foremost a schemer who happened to be very powerful. He wasn't mainly a fighter.

Seid using the beams not in combat (instead from a distance) to BFR

Healing someone (not in combat either) and vague implication via hyperbolic

Fair enough, I guess.

"atomising" someone who wasn't atomised at all (in fact Seid stored Cyborg Superman's remains and let him ago later at a unknown period pre-Coast City destruction) and whom already withstood Seid's beams earlier on (as your scans also show him surviving etc)

Cyborg Superman can't be killed. Darkseid did the best possible thing and completely inutilized him. That's as much of a win as it can possibly get.

Melting Kalibak, a relatively weak mid-tier

Mid-tier? Hard disagree.

Kalibak consistently performs at a level to hurt the likes of Superman, Orion and Captain Marvel, he just doesn't win fights against them very often.

He has defeated Lightray twice, owned the Supermen of America, together with Mantis solidly defeated Superman, etc

He is an high-tier who jobs, not a mid-tier. Certainly above the likes of Post-Crisis Mongul, and even Mongul I'd consider an high-tier.

without any usage of Omega Beams

Are you considering that a bad thing? The fact that Darkseid with touch alone can destroy Kalibak should show how more powerful his "fabled" beams should be.

Could say the exact same thing for Juggs on Earth. If he could tank guys who dwarf nameless fodder bullied by the likes of Kalibak and co by miles I think he can handle them in turn.

Agree to disagree.

I think Apokolips

The X-Men had two of the strongest psychics on Earth + progressively more elaborate ways to get the helmet off. Apokolips has neither.

Apokolips has neither? Now you're just lowballing to the max.

Apokolips has been at a war for ages with a planet of gods in all shapes and sizes, including psychics, physical powerhouses, all sort of weaponry, etc.

Getting progressively more elaborate is nothing new for them. Dealing with force-field hax is probably nothing new for them (I say probably because I can't remember a concrete example off the top of my head)

Apokolips>>>the original X-Men roster

It's not even comparable. We're talking about a planet stated and shown to have been taking part in a god war that was using everything from genetic engineering to weaponized celestial bodies. The stuff the X-Men dealt with in their earlier days is child's play for them.

Darkseid just plain isn't needed here, because someone like Juggernaut would be seen as just another weapon from New Genesis for the Apokoliptian armies to deal with. And a guy who can't kill Thor, the X-Men or even freaking Spider-Man sure as hell isn't soloing the Apokoliptian army.

Neither of these I would say are on Juggernaut's level and especially not on the older version that was casually no-selling Godblasts that scared off Celestials/Ego. That's just not comparable in my book.

I'm not saying either of those guys is as strong as Juggernaut (actually, I think a great case could be made for Cyborg Superman but I don't care nearly enough to debate that). The thing is that Darkseid fodderized those guys. Even if Juggernaut is superior to them, how can he beat a guy who fodderized Cyborg Superman when he couldn't beat Thor? Thor certainly couldn't fodderize Cyborg Superman, neither could the X-Men, neither could Spider-Man, etc.

...ok? Cool, he beat up a guy whom has never defeated Superman, welcome to the club I guess?

Lobo defeated Superman very clearly in the Day of the Krypton-Man arc.

Although I assume by your wording that you don't count that instance for some reason?

No idea where that comes from with what you have shown so far.

You think Hulk would have defeated Cyborg Superman, easily beaten Wonder Woman, destroyed Kalibak in a few seconds, no-sold a punch from Lobo, and so on?

Damn, then I guess my whole conception about the Hulk is wrong. The Hulk I know struggles with opponents on that level or below all the time.

Like Wonder Woman? She had a whole fight with him in later canon etc

Post-Flashpoint I suppose?

If that's your pont, I concede.

I mean I haven't really seen these options though.

Am I supposed to show you a down-to-the-detail sequence where Darkseid or Apokolips defeat a guy with superhuman stats and an impenetrable force-field? If that's the case, I can't recall any.

But I can show you multiple instances of Darkseid/Apokolips developing or acquiring technology to deal with new dangerous threats and having haxy equipment or individuals.

It's all a matter of logic. If they can deal with all sorts of planetary threats, Juggernaut shouldn't be anything special to them.

Even without that you've still got no instances from what I can see where Seid was BFR'ing people in combat.

He BFR'ed Infinity man twice, once in Forever People issue 3 and also in that scan I showed you. And to be clear, right after that Darkseid teleports both the Forever People and Superman away, effectively using teleportation to stop a potential threat to Apokolips.

"Darkseid" (or Desaad in disguised, whatever) also teleported Superman away in John Byrne's run, in their confrontation at the time of the Legends arc.

In the Great Darkness Saga Darkseid BFR'ed Superboy through time.

He teleported some people into Apokolips against their will in the "Power Within" arc.

Most other times Darkseid chooses to BFR himself to Apokolips instead of teleporting his opponents somewhere else.

What context? Sups has outright beaten Seid in later canon so I really don't think there's this gap between them at all.

Post-Flashpoint sucks.

I concede Post-Flashpoint loses.

Even some of his writers think he's more of a schemer than a fighter

So more proof that he will strategize instead of throwing himself at Juggernaut like a chump.

Again, this just seems like a non-answer. We can't just assume that they have anti-Juggernaut weapons based on their sheer potency or "it's a planet with advanced weapons"

We can assume they have weapons to deal with Juggernaut because they have weapons to deal with Lightray, Magnar, Beautiful Dreamer, Big Bear, Orion, all of Serifan's ridiculous and powerful cosmic cartridge hax and so on and so on. And if New Genesis with all these guys together plus armies with planet busting weaponry, couldn't hope to defeat Apokolips in a single battle, how can Juggernaut?

Do you think Juggernaut could beat a team of Orion, Lightray, Serifan, Beautiful Dreamer, Vykin and Magnar? I don't. And that I'm pretty sure I can debate with much more concrete evidence. And those guys are just a fraction of what New Genesis has that was never enough to beat Apokolips.

I'm criticising BFR in this specific case because it doesn't really deal with the actual battle, it's just a "well BFR ggs" situation instead. I'd be fine with that if we weren't also doing the opposite deal wherein they can win in so many ways but somehow BFR is the only main one that comes up properly lol.

As I said, it's either BFR or accepting that Apokolips has ways to deal with Juggernaut but that I can't muster a scan of a guy exactly like Juggernaut being bested by Apokolips.

How so? I haven't seen Father Boxes nullify stuff on the level of Cyttorak etc

And I haven't seen Juggernaut resist a Mother Box either.

Again I'm not sure how that would work or how Seid would even know about the enchantments in the first place. It's not like with Thor where he already had a fairly extensive background with Juggs, this is just a random encounter.

And in a random encounter in the planet Apokolips Juggernaut isn't going to be able to beat Darkseid. Even if Darkseid were to be stupid enough to join the fight before anyone else, he'd have thousands of soldiers jumping in to protect him. So Darkseid has plenty of time to prepare.

And Darkseid's the guy who created a device to hurt the Source itself. Juggernaut's force-field is nothing for him (bonus points in this scan for yet another feat of Darkseid teleporting around superhumans against their will).

@professorrespect:

I noticed a skipped a portion of your previous comment and it was a big one so I'm gonna address that too.

By comparison, Hulk jobs way more (how many times has Wolverine stalemated him again

...never, to my calculations.

For real Prof?

Gallery

Those are four different fights where Wolverine held his own against a not-holding-back Hulk. One of them was retconned into being a Skrull, I think, but that'd jyst make it look worse for the Hulk.

You say he jobs while he in recent years has actually grown in hype + feats by contrast given his Immortal/Starship runs respectfully.

I specifically said, and I'll quote

"Classic Hulk/Joe Fixit/Professor Hulk/Green Scar/World Breaker (basically any non-amped classically-powered Hulk)"

Those extremely recent versions like Immortal Hulk and Starship Hulk are a completely different deal and completely off the point I was trying to make. This thread is about "Classic Juggernaut" and Post-Crisis Darkseid, and I was using the versions of Hulk that were scalable to Classic Juggernaut.

You're basically acting and scaling as if Hulk, Juggernaut and Darkseid as they were up until 15 years ago or so were the exact same thing as they are nowadays. They aren't.

The publishers have changed, the characters have changed, the artstyle has changed, everything is different. The way Darkseid jobs nowadays how Juggernaut or the Hulk perform nowadays isn't applicable to threads acknowledging their 80's or 90's versions.

I really have no idea where the "Hulk jobs more than Seid" opinion comes from, especially when Seid's been losing way more to Sups in contrast to Hulk bonking around Thor.

Really Prof? Really?

Do I need to go search for every scan where the Hulk is having issues with Spider-Man, the X-Men, the Thing, Doc Sampson and so on? Being stalemated by Wonder Man, losing to Namor underwater several times, struggling with pre-Savior Cable, getting casually handled by Silver Surfer, etc, etc.

Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid has none of that. Other than losing to Superman (and winning just as much) or fighting evenly with Orion (arguably the best feats for both those characters), he is treated as being pretty much untouchable.

I also want to address this:

With??? Like we aren't going by 60's Juggernaut rules where guys like Beast and Angel could take it off I'd hope.

What kind of double-standard is this? You want to limit eras and exclude jobbing for Juggernaut but not for Darkseid?

Now onto your other replies:

It's fairly relevant for the purposes of showing how he's written in counter to your own claims to such

I've said what I had to say about this.

Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid is not the same as Post-Flashpoint and you can't use Post-Flashpoint anti-feats to support your case of Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid being weak.

Idk does it? They have access to Skyfather-tier Odin-level magic now on the fly?

Do the X-Men? Does Spider-Man?

Darkseid is technically a Skyfather himself, so his powers are Skyfather-tier, even if not Odin-tier.

It's a Darkseid plan for him to hide while everyone else fights? Idk.

It is definitely a Darkseid plan to send in people to sacrifice themselves while he stays behind scheming. That's one of the foundations of his character.

I mean that's not really true though, he died for real in the Sinestro Corp arc and was only recreated after the Manhunters reconstructed and refuelled his energy form back to life etc.

My bad then, I interpreted that scene differently. But if he did die, it was from a stated galaxy-level explosion.

....which is a mid tier. Colossus can HURT high tiers, he just isn't ever winning against them. Kalibak is the exact same in that he's basically just a punching bag that can occasionally hit back, has no good record though.

If that's your definition of a mid-tier, beating a mid-tier is a damn great feat.

I mean you were using it as a retort to me saying he doesn't use Omega Beams in-combat to BFR/hax....it's a instance where he never uses them? I'm not sure how that helps your case much.

I thought you meant he never used hax. So I showed him using hax.

EIther way, he has used Omega Beams in combat to BFR. He BFR'ed the Infinity Man once and the Forever People twice when faced directly with them, plus removed Infinity Man/Forever People and Superman from Apokolips as shown in a scan above.

Apokolips has Xavier/Jean tier telepaths? Not sure where that comes from.

They have mind-control technology, for example. If they can take off Juggs' helmet, they can stick a Justifier helmet into his head, or connect him with the Lump and force him into a mental battle against it or some such thing.

Ok? Very vague wording here.

What better wording do you need?

New Genesis has: telepaths, telepathic technology, physical powerhouses, people with tons of specific hax, entire armies of superhuman beings, planet busting weaponry, teleportation, etc.

New Genesis could not defeat Apokolips in an all-out war, even with all that stuff.

Therefore, Apokolips has counters to all those things.

It's as simple as that.

Ok? What high tiers have these armies dealt with?

Izaya, Lightray, Orion, Magnar, all the New Genesis gods equipped with Mother Boxes who participated in the war.

The guys who get bullied by Kalibak are gonna beat someone who dwarfs him in stats? With what?

Who gets bullied by Kalibak? I've certainly never seen Kalibak solo an Apokolips army.

I'd expect him to fodderize a punching bag and a inferior character to Superman, yeah lol.

Juggernaut isn't fodderizing Kalibak anymore than he is fodderizing Spider-Man or the X-Men.

The idea that Juggs not killing Spider-Man is somehow a negative is such a non-argument that it really doesn't warrant much of a response because of the sheer absurdity of it.

The idea here is that Juggs is even considered a foe for Spider-Man to face. Darkseid isn't shown as a foe to anyone except Superman and the New Gods.

What is this awful scaling chain? Seid had Sups run in to fight Cyborg fight, his initial Omega Beam didn't actually beat Cyborg (in fact he basically just shook it off as soon as it finished) and it didn't destroy Cyborg either completely.

Darkseid dematerialized the Cyborg in two hits. That's a fact.

By comparison Juggernaut taking Thor to his physical limits, tanking blasts that have damaged name-value Celestials and Ego and generally only losing because of BFR is supposed to be worse?

Not worse, but you're talking about the high-ends of high-ends for Jugegrnaut there.

Don't recall that at all.

Adventures of Superman 464.

Amped.

This is way too long a discussion for me to get into here but I don't think GDS Darkseid was amped.

His rival Highfather was shown to be roughly a match for him in power and he wasn't amped at all. The clone of Orion was shown as a match to him better than anyone in that story-arc, including an amped Supergirl, and he was stated weaker than the real Orion. And Darkseid himself sated he wasn't amped.

Difference between "throwing himself" and "hiding in the castle" Seid I don't think would be keen to run away from a emerging threat nor do I think he's been written as such

He has absolutely been written as such. New Gods series, Forever People series, Superman comics of the late 80's and 90's, schemer Darkseid all the way.

Not a relevant question, really. I'm just asking what weapon (s) beat Juggs. It's up to you to answer or at least point me in the right direction.

I already pointed you in the right direction. Mother/Father Boxes, Omega Beams, Justifier Helmets, Pythia's Garden nullifying his powers, etc

Thousands of featless soldiers that are fodder to someone like Kalibak who in turn is a punching bag for high tiers.

Please tell me where you're getting the idea from that Apokoliptian Armies are somehow fodder to Kalibak. Please.

@professorrespect: So not scoring a KO means it isn’t a win despite Superman admitting to himself he needed help and couldn’t take much more in his thought bubbles?

Sure Lobo used Kryptonite but he was doing fine before it and Superman used the Kryptonian warsuit.

@professorrespect: You are being purposefully obtuse and acting ignorant with a lot of this stuff to support your point.

Idk how showing singular panels of Wolverine either getting hit or slashing is supposed to be a stalemate.

Dude, for real? I showed those single pages because I didn't want to show the entire fight for all of them. I'd be posting some 40 pages for that alone. Come on!

But if you read those full fights, all of them end without a clear winner or with Wolverine coming out on top.

The Grey Hulk fight is interrupted with both of them standing and ready to fight.

The Bone Claw vs Mind-Controlled Hulk one ends with Wolverine tricking Hulk into punching some gas pocket, KO'ing him.

The Horseman of Apocalypse fight ends with Wolverine ceasing to fight when he was doing well because he was done with the whole thing. The Hulk then starts attacking a Wolverine who was not fighting back until he leaves and Wolverine is still doing OK.

In the snow fight the Hulk was attacking Wolverine the entire time and Wolverine wasn't fighting back. When Wolverine started fighting back they were even until an avalanche stopped them.

Not a stalemate (in any of these, really, in fact in the second one Wolverine himself admits that he's way out of his league and can't fight the guy)

Yet he still wins the fight in the end.

I mean planet busting isn't something Seid has done. Like ever lol. Like that's just not gonna be bypassed in that case.

And struggling with Wolverine-tier opponents isn't something Darkseid has done.

You can certainly try, but I'm not really sure why nitpicking to the point of considering individual panels as "stalemating" with the Hulk is actually supposed to substantiate any of your points here.

Once again, for real??

I was not trying to attack about those specific panels, I never even mentioned a single one of them lol.

Those were single pages taken from entire fights where the Hulk clearly failed to defeat Wolverine.

I mean Seid has more than that in terms of underperforming etc. Like lose-rates come to Sups alone but that wasn't the only reason why his rep was in the toilet.

You keep saying that and I haven't seen you mention a single concrete example.

The X-Men never depowered his forcefield? Kinda feel like you are just spitballing responses at this point based on a very limited knowledge of the character. That's fine if the case, I'd rather you just admit as such rather than keep going to these really awful false comparisons.

When did I say the X-Men depowered his force-field? I said the X-Men can beat him and they don't have Skyfather magic.

And it's funny, I'm feeling the exact same thing regarding your knowledge of Apokolips' power.

And "really awful false comparisons"? It's a fact that Juggernaut lost to the X-Men a number of times. And I've seen zero proof that the X-Men are any better than the entire freaking civilization of Apokolips.

But to hide? He's not a guy who would be willing to hide from a potential threat, I'd imagine.

Last time I'm gonna address this at all.

Darkseid DOES NOT jump into battle for no reason. I have no idea why you would even think that. The guy is first and foremost a schemer who manipulates his forces and uses his god-status for his benefit. That's Darkseid 101.

I really can't put this any more clearly, it's the Darkseid MO in pretty much every Pre-Flashpoint Darkseid comic.

I mean any high tier can beat a mid-tier fairly easily, like Kalibak has a shitty record regardless of all the times he's hit a high tier lol. He's just worse than average in that regard.

Oh yeah, all his low-showings of losing to Superman and... what more exactly?

Generally the claim was that his hax isn't used in-combat. That I think has yet to be disproven given the real lack of substance to his hax stuff.

Turning Kalibak to dust while wrestling him isn't using hax in battle? Then what is???

....right, but you know that wasn't what the above was asking nor was what you were inferring initially.

*sigh*

You asked for a showing of telepathy, I didn't have any so instead I brought up mind-control, which should work just as fine.

Kinda feels like you're arguing for the heck of it.

The main issue is that this assumes that they can get past both the forcefield and the helmet lol. That's not going to happen I'd say.

I mean, if you're automatically disproving any chance of the helmet being removed like it has been a dozen times by guys like Shatterstar, Angel, Beast, Savage Hulk, Professor Hulk, etc,

And if you're gonna disprove the notion that his force-field can be negated like it has been by Thor and probably other people that I don't know about,

The I guess Juggernaut is completely undefeatable.

Except he has so many losses to his name that I'm pretty sure people with super-speed and super-strength on Apokolips can in fact remove it.

So I'm gonna say a guy like Kanto just speed-blitzes him and removes his helmet. Or maybe the Female Furies. Or the Deep Six. Or all of them together. And then they stick a Justifier Helmet in his head and turn him into a mindless Darkseid slave.

Or maybe the Father Boxes do remove his force-field and he gets beaten by pure force.

Actual wording to show what can defeat Juggs.

I just gave you something.

The armies alone have done this?

Considering all these guys have participated in the war against Apokolips and Darkseid rarely participates directly, yes, the armies have faced all these guys. Otherwise New Genesis would have defeated Apokolips eons ago.

Kalibak by virtue of being the main commander of them would have to be significantly stronger, no?

That's not how armies work lol

The Apokolips armies fight in the name of Darkseid, regardless of who is commanding the battalion. They serve for fear and reverence to Darkseid, not because of fear for any commander.

In fact he gets abandoned by his armies as soon as he gets badly enough hurt because they only fear his physical strength more than anything else.

Source for any of this??

I don't even remember any specific instance of Kalibak leading an army to war, much less that army running away after Kalibak was defeated.

Less have done so already, so yeah I don't think Kalibak is going to be any issue here. He's a mid-tier who almost always is barely worth the mention.

Says you.

This is about the sixth time you've made this same tired and frankly lazy comparison so for the benefit of myself I'm just going to go through this rather swiftly.

Juggs faced Spider-Man once in the space of about 40 years of comic publication between the pair.

Nothing Spidey did had any effect on the guy. Webbing, his strongest blows, electrical traps, trucks filled with explosives, blah blah. Not once did Juggernaut give a shit about the guy and he beat him about three times over in the space of three issues while paying barely any attention to him.

Spider-Man was never "considered a foe" for Juggernaut. For the benefit of your argument, please don't conflate the two.

Fair enough. But Venom has fought Juggernaut. And Beast. And Thunderstrike.

All people inferior to even your "lowly mid-tier" Kalibak.

Where did he get beat in that issue again? Superman is never KO'd by Lobo despite him getting the sucker punch in first, then he has to abuse Kryptonite later on.

I haven't reread the issue in a while but from what I recall Lobo was beating Superman pretty handily to the point Superman had to run away and enter the Kryptonian Battlesuit just to stand a chance.

On his home terf? Not sure about that etc. Even your BFR'ing scans show Seid teleporting Sups and co to him rather than hiding away.

This is just false, as I already said.

As I said, it's your argument on the table here. If you don't want to back it up with actual stuff then I can't really do a whole lot else

As I said above when you can prove they can bypass his enchantments then this'll be interesting.

The Father Box stuff is just an example. If you ask me, if the Apokoliptians don't remove his helmet and take control of Juggernaut's mind, Darkseid's gonna teleport him to Pythia's garden and let her undo his force-field like she undid his Omega Beams.

The name was given by Toddlers dont be surprised.

@professorrespect:

Right, and Seid's clearly failed to defeat Supergirl physically.

When? Where?

Because it's true. There are whole galleries of showings where people have tanked the Omega Beams already shown here, for instance.

Huge-ass context for vast majority of these scans. Pretty much every scan that didn't involve Superman, Darkseid wasn't trying to kill. Even in one of the Superman scans, Darkseid specifically wasn't trying to kill.

Clearly I'm referring to the force-field as per the above. You at least understood partly given you mention Darkseid being technically a Skyfather to boot, so yeah I have no idea why you mentioned X-Men for enchantment breaking lol.

My bad then, should have looked at the context better.

He's not a coward though. If a big threat was to emerge he would at least go and see what it is, no? Idk why we're assuming he hides from people when he BFR'd Infinite Man and Superman to him from range.

Darkseid knows exactly who Infinity Man and Superman are and what they can do. He ins't afraid to fight them because he knows he doesn't have to fear them.

He never does that against brand-new scary-looking opponents.

Isn't in-combat.

It is most definitley combat What else can you call something like that?

Kanto doesn't have high-tier strength so I don't think that would work.

But he has high-tech powerful Apokolips weaponry that can hurt the likes of the Martian Manhunter. If Shatterstar's swords can remove Juggernaut's helmet, there's nothing stoping Kanto's weaponry.

So we're inferring from a implication that the armies alone have maybe at one point handled these individuals?

Yes. It's a known fact that Apokolips was/has been at war with New Genesis for years and that those guys are New Genesis warriors. Everything about them implies that they, and many more nameless gods for that matter, faced Apokolips at some point and couldn't win.

Happened in Final Crisis.

You mean the stuff with the tiger-people?

Those weren't Apokoliptians, they were genetically engineered beings bred on Earth in the Mutant Factory. Completely different mindset and nature. They were even implied to be the ancestors of the animal-people in Kamandi's future world.

Not comparable to standard Apokoliptian soldiers at all, who are born on Apokolips with no relation to Earth creatures and educated and trained by Granny Goodness to serve Darkseid.

"Classic versions" as per OP. Venom and Juggs happened in the late 90's and well after Juggs' peak

If you really want to conflate that garbage 60's showing where Juggs losing the helmet depowered him completely (which has NEVER happened since) to a serious rate of consistency then idk why even argue at all. It's about as serious as using Darkseid getting stabbed by a regular guy or falling down the stairs.

Fair enough.

I don't think he got "beat" of virtue of Lobo sucker-punching the guy and getting the initial advantage

That doesn't change the fact he was clearly overpowering Superman.