The Great Darkness vs Monitor Mind

So, Justice League Incarnate #4 had some pretty big revelations and retcons, but most importantly it quashes the silly idea that Monitor Mind was the most powerful entity in DC canon and the be all and end all of everything. It seems pretty clear now that, at most, it was just an aspect of the light, i.e. the Presence.

I'm thinking the Great Darkness takes this in a stomp, especially since the Great Darkness simply screaming was enough to fracture and hurt it.

Thoughts?

in b4 Michael Julius

OT: GD has better feats and stomps the fodder.

Lol is he still around preaching his nonsense? I see him on Quora a lot and can only laugh.

Great Darkness stomps. It's pretty clearly implied to be above the Overvoid/Light.

Not only that but I think it's pretty clear that MM is below the light itself.

@mandrakksfang:I'm not so sure about that. Overvoid seems to be the Light itself, like The Presence, as we're shown that when the light expanded in the Great Darkness, it shows the Overvoid.

@great_darkness:I consider Monitor Mind to be distinct from 'the overvoid'. MM was a consciousness that came into existence in the overvoid but is not synonymous with it.

Not to mention it states the light created the monitors, and we know MM didn't.

Honestly by that scan you could make the argument that the flaw was MM itself too.

@great_darkness: I really hate the CV quoting/reply system so I'm not going to use it, but I think the points I'm replying to should be pretty clear.

Maybe MM and Overvoid were the same, maybe they were not, there was a lot of ambiguity when you put FC in context of a lot of other DC stuff. Some people thought there were several voids for example, which isn't something I accepted. Besides, it's possible Superman could have been mistaken.

We've seen voids in other comics, e.g. the one Nekron through Superman in, the one in Lucifer, with no hint of MM, so it's my view that MM was an entity within the void...and thinking about it now, it still could have been a void within a larger void.

I disagree that MM made the monitors in FC. You don't need to provide me any scans, I'm well familiar with FC and have debated it plenty and have it handy. But basically MM sent in a probe that assumed the form of monitors already present. If you disagree I'd say we just have different interpretations.

In any event as you say whatever the case was Metal retconned things, and now JLI has again.

The flaw could be MM as created by the GD screaming, only reason that doesn't work is if you stick to MM being synonymous with OV. On the other hand I think it works quite well given a large part of the MM stuff in FC revolved around conflict, and you could say the GD screaming was the first instance of conflict.

@mandrakksfang:

I see your point with the void in other comics being shown to not have any sort of consciousness reminiscent of the Monitor Mind, and I'll take a look into it, but I will say we definitely have to disagree on Monitors not being made by the Monitor Mind in FC. But if you don't think that Monitor Mind made the Monitors, do you think that they're originally all splits of Mar or what?

JLI has definitely retconned a lot of stuff, so I'll guess we have to wait for JLI #5 to clear things up hopefully. But I still think that all the evidence points towards Overvoid being the Light, rather than the flaw, which was directly stated to be the multiverse rather than Monitor Mind.

Lol what? The Great Darkness and the light literally signify two states of Monitor Mind the Overvoid. The darkness being the state of nothingness and the light being the state of creation within the space. Meanwhile Monitor Mind is the non dual conscious living void space itself.

@great_darkness:I said you don't have to bother with scans, but if you have something that *explicitly* shows MM as having created the monitors I would be curious (or at least to see which page you think shows that), and I think it's pretty explicit MM didn't create the monitor race in FC.

And yeah I think they are all splits of Mar, in fact I think there was a JL issue that tied in with one of the metal events that made that very explicit.

I don't think you're right that evidence points toward OV being the light, the main reason is that the light is very clearly heaven, and there is a call back to Swamp Thing #50 withthe hand of light (explicitly coming from heaven) clasping the hand of TGD. The light/heaven is clearly the presence, so unless you want to conflate the presence and MM I don't think it adds up at all.

@xearesay You're clearly very confused, or beholden to the same religion MJ is. Absolutely nothing even comes close to indicates TGD or the light are only states of MM. Utterly ridiculous. That's purely you're headcanon and you're welcome to it, but it isn't supported by anything on any page.

@great_darkness:Hmm, I remember that. Honestly it's been a while since I debated any of this stuff, I gave up because of the monitor cult nonsense, it was like talking to a brick wall.

If JLI does end up tying The Presence and the Overvoid together I will accept it, but as of the last issue I am not convinced. I would hope JLI5 does give more explanation, but I hoped DM would as well and it didn't, it very much brushed over the cosmology stuff and handwaived the rest.

But, Williamson seems to be trying to unify the cosmology, so I think there is reason to have hope here.

@mandrakksfang: Did we read the same issue? In the first panel of the story they literally mention two states.

1. Everything being nothing(The Great Darkness).

2. Everything being something.(The light).

And nothingness as a concept is literally a state when space is empty. And Monitor Mind the Overvoid is the non dual conscious space that everything exist inside of. Backed up by the comics and Morrison. Meaning we can conclude that TGD and the Light are literally two states of the Overvoid.

@xearesay: Honestly I don't really care what you say, you and MJ both have the same habit of ignoring evidence and interpreting it some weird ass wacky way and them claiming bizarre things that you think are supported by scans, except the scans never ever support what you claim.

You flat out don't know DC cosmology well at all and simply try to twist everything to fit into your weird monitor cult dogma. Please go find a different thread instead.

Trying to claim Heaven (the light) is merely a state of MM is bizarre. Get help.

but most importantly it quashes the silly idea that Monitor Mind was the most powerful entity in DC canon and the be all and end all of everything. It seems pretty clear now that, at most, it was just an aspect of the light, i.e. the Presence.

I'm not sure if you've seen the new DC Book, but it makes it very clear what the Presence is. It even directly states that "The Hands Of The Source" work for the Presence.

@mandrakksfang: Lol keep telling yourself that. Everyone knows the Overvoid is supreme in DC. Only you and a few other weirdos on this deadend ass site haven’t gotten with the program yet. Good luck trying to convince people that the non dual space that contains everything is an aspect of the Presence who himself has a literal opposite. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Like… Did you even read the comic? I can’t wait until you get to the part where it tells us the Empty Hand, the right hand of the Great Darkness that formed a truce with the Light, was beaten by Nix Uotan. Who’s literally like a spec to Mandrakk.

Mandrakk > Nix Uotan > Right hand of Great Darkness.

heat of 10 billion suns > right hand of GD

The Right Hand of the GEB has yet to be defeated, he casually stomped True Form Darkseid, Spectre, and Dr. Fate (under Nabu's control). Extant, Superboy Prime, Mandrakk, Anti-Life Entity, and Hyperfly are all just puppets or avatars of Empty Hand, he exerted his influnce over them so to scale these characters above the Right Hand makes no sense.

Good luck trying to convince people that the non dual space that contains everything is an aspect of the Presence who himself has a literal opposite. Do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Like… Did you even read the comic?

That's literally what the comic says though. The Presence is literally shown to be The Overvoid in the newest comic.

They even copied the font to explicitly demonstrate that the Overvoid origin story is actually The Light's origin story. And who is The Light? Oh right. The Presence. As demonstrated by the Swamp Thing cameo.

The Presence is also directly stated to be in charge of The Hands of the Multiverse (the most powerful beings in DC thus far), and is also directly stated to be the Omniverse's supreme being (though it is said in the greater omniverse there might be someone more powerful)

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I can’t wait until you get to the part where it tells us the Empty Hand, the right hand of the Great Darkness that formed a truce with the Light, was beaten by Nix Uotan. Who’s literally like a spec to Mandrakk.

It never says Nix Uotan defeated the Empty Hand. However, by the time those two encountered each other, the comic literally says that the Hand that once formed a truce had become something different. The two do not scale to each other.

I can't wait until you get to the part where it says Barbatos is an avatar of the Great Darkness, who literally imprisoned Mandrakk after he got defeated in Final Crisis.

Or maybe the part where it literally says the Light created Mandrakk, who was then corrupted by the Great Darkness and used as one of many pawns?

Nah, you've got that ass backwards as usual. It's you and MJ who are in this weird monitor cult who try to insist that overvoid is supreme to everything despite all evidence, you even ignore any retcons where things are explicitly stated.

It's exactly why you weirdos are referred to as the monitor cult.

I don't think we are in disagreement here?

Another point is that with this latest retcon it eliminates the seeming contradiction between the lore of Lucifer/Sandman and the main continuity stuff, since clearly the world seen in Lucifer is just one multiverse created by the Presence.

Interesting to consider if Lucifer was aware of others or not.

I don't think we are in disagreement here?

We aren't, sorry if I made it sound that way.

Interesting to consider if Lucifer was aware of others or not.

I think large parts of the Carey story are no longer compatible with the current cosmology, so it's hard to say.

@deagonx:What parts do you think are not compatible? I feel it can fit in quite nicely as just another multiverse given how JLI 4 ties everything together.

What parts do you think are not compatible?

Michael and Lucifer's role in the cosmology either has to be ignored or upscaled, since they definitively did not create the current DC Multiverse. I thought it made the most sense to interpret them as Omniversal now, since the Presence is Omniversal.

@deagonx:I guess we need to figure out what omniversal means. It's one thing if it means a multiverse of multiverses, but they would all be DC unvierses still. We need a tier above omniversal if that's the case that would include all fictions and all universes,

I just took Michael and Lucifer as existing in 'a' DC universe as opposed to 'the' DC universe. Do you see any issue with that?

I guess we need to figure out what omniversal means. It's one thing if it means a multiverse of multiverses, but they would all be DC unvierses still. We need a tier above omniversal if that's the case that would include all fictions and all universes,

Honestly it doesn't really mean anything. It's just another word to cordon off different groupings of universes. I say "DC Multiverse" for the Orrery and surrounding structures.

I just took Michael and Lucifer as existing in 'a' DC universe as opposed to 'the' DC universe. Do you see any issue with that?

The problem is that the original multiverse that Lucifer existed within had a Source Wall. The Source Wall was created just for Perpetua in the primary DC Multiverse, not every multiverse had it. He created a separate multiverse outside the DC Multiverse which Destiny of the Endless didn't have dominion over, which suggests it was a wholly different thing.

Unfortunately the whole point of the story was to escape the purview of the Presence and decide his own destiny. If his father rules over Super Celestials creating any number of multiverses, then creating another wouldn't necessarily meet that criteria. But if we say he created a wholly separate "omniverse" then it calls into question what omniverse means, as you said.

@deagonx:Oh yeah I forgot about SNyder's source wall retcon. Pretty sure other multiverses have had source walls though, and we have had different reasons for it before Pepetua. My thinking is there is more than one and they can serve more than one purpose.

Good point about his whole reason for creating a whateververse was to escape the pruview of his father. I remember he flew out far enough from existence that he the source was 'in the distance' and he didn't have to pay it much attention (although that is kind of odd if the source IS the presence...sigh). My thinking and way to reconcile it is that he indeed left whatever plane was necessary for him to create his 'verse, which existed parallel but separate from the DC omniverse...I guess Lucifer's verse would exist in the same space that Star Trek, Marvel, Star Wars, Discworld etc all exist as their own things.

That was my thinking too.

@deagonx: I think the Source is meant to be the supreme being of the omniverse, wheras the Presence is mostly confined to being the supreme being of the multiverse. The Handbook refers to them as two seperate entities and has different entries for them, and the Presence is most likely just one form the Source can take.

@mandrakksfang:

I guess we need to figure out what omniversal means. It's one thing if it means a multiverse of multiverses, but they would all be DC unvierses still. We need a tier above omniversal if that's the case that would include all fictions and all universes,

The final issue of Death Metal defined it as an infinite web of multiverses.

@ultraphoenix: book entry states that Presence is the supreme being of the omniverse, not Source

@sirdragonfly: I know, but the Presence is more of a personal emanation of the Source. Scott Snyder mentioned this in an interview. Also he's the supreme being of the multiverse but possibly not the omniverse.

I don't think this is supported by the evidence. There has been ample proof that the Presence and the Source are the same being. Tynion said that he saw the Source as a type of energy that the Presence uses, which is supported by the guide book. I definitely don't think there's a clear hierarchy where the Presence is lower than the Source, there's just too muche vidence to the contrary.

@deagonx: If the Presence gets energy from the Source, then how are they the same being, and why does the handbook have seperate terms for them with different meanings? It seems to imply that the Source is just a limitless energy which beings like the Presence use.

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If the Presence gets energy from the Source, then how are they the same being,

It's not quite as straightforward as that. It's not as simple as literally stating that they are the same thing, like saying Clark Kent is Superman, but their place in the cosmological hierarchy are more or less equal, and they are commonly used interchangeably. Like how the "Judges of the Source" work for the Presence.

I think a good analogy would be like the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Christianity. The "Father" is the most typical notion of "God" but all are associated with the Godhead. There's not a hierarchy so to speak.

@sladeracer: Bruh the presence is very clearly not just one of the gods in the sphere of the gods. If nothing else we know he is synonymous with the source.

@sladeracer:Heaven's god is actually yahweh, which yes has a connection with the presence, but the presence is also identified with both the light and the source and clearly exists outside of the sphere and is on another tier than the other gods who are in the sphere.

Can you provide your scan for the source fleeing from the empty hand? And I don't think the presence has ever been foiled by beings who scale below the source, just annoyed.

@sladeracer:Haven't looked at all your scans yet, but I've read those comics so I'm pretty sure you are misconstruing something or ignoring the recent retcon.

Anyway, I didn't say heavens god was synonymous with the source, I said the presence was, and that is true as of Death Metal. No other gods in DC have had that claimed about them. The presence is very simply not a simple god like the other gods in the sphere.

@sladeracer:I mean you're conclusively wrong as of Dark Knights Metal, I'm sure you've read it and have seen the scan equating the presence with the source. You just don't want to acknowledge it. This obsession some people have to downgrade presence to 'just' a god in the sphere is honestly weird, we know he is different.

@sladeracer:@deagonx Do you have the relevant scans handy for showing presence and source are the same?

@mandrakksfang: yeah I posted them in another thread with this same guy and he ignored them.

He described the scan saying connective energy is of the presence, of the source as "just mentioning that the Presence can make that energy"