Kakuzu vs Sukuna

easily kakuzu he blitses and would survive sukuna cut bc of his psuedo immortality and the fact that he can just steal his heart not to mention speed different and the ability to harden his skin

Stalemate. Kakuzu is practically immortal and he can't kill curses either. However, if we went by that logic Sukuna could eventually use his domain to destroy each of Kakzus hearts and win. In a scenario where they can hurt each other by conventional means, Kakuzu shitstomps.

Kakuzu cooks

Nah i think Kakazu getting too much credit here, that dimensional cut probably get his ass

Sukuna is slower but he has the Domain and Regeneration so he wins.

I don't see Kakuzu surviving the Shrine.

@shadyyyyyy: he can just stitch himself back together it took every cell in his body being destroyed to be killed

@greythejiren: he can his immortality can no sell getting his head cut etc and he survived every cell in is body being cut in half

He did survive that but wasnt really in fighting condition , idk, Sukuna still has me sold with better hax

Kakuzu dies.

@masterbuster666: how when he has pseudo immortality he survived all of his cell being cut in half before and he reattacched several body parts

Domain + Fire Arrow GG

Kakuzu with practically no difficulty.

Kakuzu starts off winning then gets DE'd and fades away.

Sukuna's domain expansion can be tanked and outran.

I actually wonder if it is possibe for Kakuzu to act from outside with his other Heartmonsters, while he is trapped in Sukuna´s Domain Expansion.

Sukuna have better haxes and is virtually immortal with his RCT.

No, because Sukuna's DE doesn't have a barrier.

Out ran an 400 m range?

Kakuzu lost to a shinobi that couldn't reach Pain in 5 seconds.

@thedukeofwei: yes they have a mind of their own

@lucascosta: pain is so much faster than sukuna it isnt funny so no not to mention that he could just absorb his heart and he is also immortal

the domain is 200m, I reckon any decent Shinobi crosses that in a second at most, pain thing is an outlier until you actually believe Naruto to be slower than part 1 kids who surpassed sound speed.

Really?

"Pain thing" is a major part of the fight. The whole fight revolves around how different shinobi (not only Naruto, but Kakashi as well) develops strategies to explore the 5 seconds gap.

If anything, "the sound thing" is the outliers here.

@lucascosta:

Really?

that being 200m or not is meaningless, as that is just usual PIS that happens in every manga and fictional material where authors aren't thinking about speed 24/7, here is weightless Rock Lee blitzing and moving high distances instantly, faster than Gaara can percieve

Rock Lee with just weights off was capable of blitzing Gaara's automatic defenses.

and the same sand defense that can point blank react to explosions and has been calculated at Mach 38 as a.mid end and with that we can conclude even Lee with no weights is moving mach 39-40, with that in mind.

weightless rock lee can escape in 1/66 of a second.

do I need to lay out for you why Kakuzu would statue kid Rock Lee?

"Pain thing" is a major part of the fight. The whole fight revolves around how different shinobi (not only Naruto, but Kakashi as well) develops strategies to explore the 5 seconds gap.

and? Kishimoto's writing style doesn't take away from their feats at all, countless comic and manga writers give such timeframes for more familiar comprehension of the reader, doesn't mean we assume the whole verse is human speed (what a literal application of five second thing would intake)

If anything, "the sound thing" is the outliers here.

h, not really, The Kids in chunin exam are easily hypersonic to MHS by feats.

@maulsmacker said:

@lucascosta:

Really?

that being 200m or not is meaningless, as that is just usual PIS that happens in every manga and fictional material where authors aren't thinking about speed 24/7, here is weightless Rock Lee blitzing and moving high distances instantly, faster than Gaara can percieve

Rock Lee with just weights off was capable of blitzing Gaara's automatic defenses.

and the same sand defense that can point blank react to explosions and has been calculated at Mach 38 as a.mid end and with that we can conclude even Lee with no weights is moving mach 39-40, with that in mind.

weightless rock lee can escape in 1/66 of a second.

do I need to lay out for you why Kakuzu would statue kid Rock Lee?

.

Funny how you acknowledge this when the author is literally giving us the numbers, but think it is valid to compare with a random explosion with values derived from fan calcs.

@maulsmacker said:

@lucascosta:

.

and? Kishimoto's writing style doesn't take away from their feats at all, countless comic and manga writers give such timeframes for more familiar comprehension of the reader, doesn't mean we assume the whole verse is human speed (what a literal application of five second thing would intake)

.

Yes, the author intents doesn't take aways the feats. It is the fan calcs that does.

Not really.

The attack Sasuke dodged was 0% sound waves and 100% Air pressure.

@lucascosta:

Funny how you acknowledge this when the author is literally giving us the numbers, but think it is valid to compare with a random explosion with values derived from fan calcs.

Kishimoto is not giving you the numbers to take literally to calculate the speed of his characters, the concept of creative liberties exist, you can't expect Kishimoto to sit down and do the match of "hey! 0.0001 second is what I should write", it's tedious and illogical, the whole 5 second thing doesn't remotely connect to the speed of these characters.

if you soooo value straight up numbers, be accepting of Mach 5 BoS Naruto then.

even if you want to lowball Gaara's feat to simple explosion timing, it's still going to far surpass the required speed kakuzu needs to move to get out of Malevolent Shrine.

this doesn't matter though, as the calculation is of Gaara's reaction to the explosions and not the speed of the explosion, make a convincing case on why we should ignore a thorough quantification of a feat

make a point on why exactly we should disregard all the feats to limit ourselves to human speed Naruto characters.

Yes, the author intents doesn't take aways the feats. It is the fan calcs that does.

what you're trying to sell as intent is a basic creative liberty, same type of arguments can be used to confirm Sukuna is human speed btw, same arguments can also be used to say DBZ characters are not even subsonic, that's what happens when you try to debate fiction without knowing how fiction works.

Not really.

The attack Sasuke dodged was 0% sound waves and 100% Air pressure.

I mean...its called Supersonic Air Slice

Gallery

and even if supersonic is somehow a translation mistake, that means nothing at all considering the databook says it uses ultrasonic waves too

It has sound involved.

why are we discussing these anyway? Kakuzu has high relativistic reaction speed, he isn't worrying from MHS Sukuna.

But you expect him to research the value of the speed of an expanding gas before drawing the reacting of Gaara?

"if you soooo value straight up numbers, be accepting of Mach 5 BoS Naruto then"

Dude, you can't be serious.

@maulsmacker said:

@lucascosta:

even if you want to lowball Gaara's feat to simple explosion timing, it's still going to far surpass the required speed kakuzu needs to move to get out of Malevolent Shrine.

this doesn't matter though, as the calculation is of Gaara's reaction to the explosions and not the speed of the explosion, make a convincing case on why we should ignore a thorough quantification of a feat

make a point on why exactly we should disregard all the feats to limit ourselves to human speed Naruto characters.

.

You said it yourself: "that happens in every manga and fictional material where authors aren't thinking about speed 24/7"

Authors will usually not have a table of the speed of explosions in mind when wrighting. Authors intent should have preference over fan calcs. When you use externas soucers like this, you're stranding further from the author intend.

If you want to base a feat in a fan calc, at least use number the author himself gave us, like Pain's 5 seconds gap.

You're trying to debate fiction based on real world physycs, like the value of propagation of an exploding gas.

Not wanting to offend, but between the two of us, it is you that doesn't know how fiction works.

@maulsmacker said:

@lucascosta:

Not really.

The attack Sasuke dodged was 0% sound waves and 100% Air pressure.

I mean...its called Supersonic Air Slice

Gallery

.

It is.

So what?

@maulsmacker said:

@lucascosta:

Gallery

and even if supersonic is somehow a translation mistake, that means nothing at all considering the databook says it uses ultrasonic waves too

.

Why are you choosing to ignore this part?

Kakuzu can't even dodge a Lightning speed Kirin.

It is an interesting comeback, before opinions were leaning more towards Kakuzu.

BoS Naruto going mach 5 is perfectly valid, he says this while running at high speed.

But you expect him to research the value of the speed of an expanding gas before drawing the reacting of Gaara?

irrelevant, I don't care if the author knows the speeds of explosions, he shows us that Gaara's shield can block explosions, then he shows us Rock lee is faster, Rock Lee > speed of explosion.

however, we can go out and extrapolate the overall results of speed because this is a feat and feats can be calculated, all verses on this site uses calculations, nothing inherently wrong in that. Battleboarding is about the quantification and crossverse application of such things, for accurate quantification of anything, mathematics is used.

.

You said it yourself: "that happens in every manga and fictional material where authors aren't thinking about speed 24/7"

correct, that is why you cannot use creative liberties like this to downscale characters to human level, you may as well argue they talk while fighting so subsonic atp

Authors will usually not have a table of the speed of explosions in mind when wrighting. Authors intent should have preference over fan calcs. When you use externas soucers like this, you're stranding further from the author intend.

most of the authors are educated enough to know that an explosion spans fast, why does it matter anyway? Kishimoto wrote Rock Lee to be faster than explosions, from that point onwards, it's the duty of people conversing the verse to come to a conclusion on what that entails in a crossverse context and conversation.

If you want to base a feat in a fan calc, at least use number the author himself gave us, like Pain's 5 seconds gap.

Ok, Naruto was Mach 5 in first chapter, number given by Kishimoto.

and unlike yours, I'm not basing this off nothing but creative liberties, I can probably argue Sukuna to be below sound speed with your method of conduct, Afterall shoko kept up with Gojo vs Sukuna

with all due respect, never attempt to debate again.

you've to apply the basic concepts of this universe for even the most basic quantification of anything, you complain about me using IRL physics, so I'm assuming you don't base your debating on IRL physics, ok, tell me then.

what dictates one meter in Naruto = equal duration of space in real life?

what dictates one second in Naruto = equal duration of time in real life?

what dictates gravity in Naruto = gravity in real life?

what dictates people in Naruto breath oxygen?

oh yes, all of this metric of quantifiable are fundamentally dependent on us using their IRL versions, the same way the speed of sound in Naruto has to be 340m/s because we've to set the metric of quantification of fictional verses as ~ IRL, the speed of explosions in Naruto need to equal the speed of explosions in real life too.

this is not rocket science, it's just that not only are you completely new to the concept of a creative liberty, you're also new to what debating is.

@lucascosta said:

@maulsmacker said:

@lucascosta:

Not really.

The attack Sasuke dodged was 0% sound waves and 100% Air pressure.

I mean...its called Supersonic Air Slice

Gallery

.

It is.

So what?

.

do you know what supersonic means?

@lucascosta said:

.

Why are you choosing to ignore this part?

because the actual description of the Jutsu Sasuke dicked on includes ultrasonic waves.

and you can't prove the jutsu used on Sasuke was 100% air waves anyway, and your own scan doesn't say the speed decreases either.

Kirin accelerates from lightning to the speed of light when coming down

it goes through rapid acceleration, and has a huge AOE to destroy mountains instantly, it's undodgeable.

doesn't mean anything tho, Kakashi already in part 1 reacted to Lightspeed attacks, a stronger Kakashi and Kakuzu stalemated

I think the deciding factor would be speed here, Kakuzu doesn't really have a way to deal with Sukuna's DE. In turn, Sukuna would likely have a hard time dealing with Kakuzu's versatility and superior regeneration. Speed wise I'm leaning towards Kakuzu so I think he would take this.

Kakuzu should mid diff. Regular slashes, the fire arrow and his domain aren’t making through kakuzu’s armor. He was no selling attacks from the 2 tails, sukuna doesn’t have that kind of firepower. His curse tool could help though.

The world slash isn’t much either, it would cut through his armor but his spare hearts would let him survive that. Afterwards kakuzu is gonna know he needs to avoid it.

It’s not spammable and is super telegraphed (hand signs, chants, a gesture).

Give me sukuna, I’ve got him as faster with far better reaction speed

with what arguments?

Sukuna. Better hax and regeneration

@maulsmacker: the arguments repeated over and over again with on panel feats and statements that you’ve refused to accept because of an outdated asf statement.

Sukuna has his fun then opens his domain and ends it with a couple nice cool reality slashes

@ecoblitz: your argument is inherently flawed because youd be luck to get sukuna at mhs speed

those kinds of speed were achieved by pre timeskip temari base lee kakuzu is faster than immortal arc kakashi you know the same kakashi that has ls feats dodging itachis ls water bullets and could keep up with kisame the same guy who could keep up with ms sasuke that statuid mifunes lightspeed blade etc

@eminenceofcid: sukuna absorbs someones soul and power when he steals their heart

don't even know where this is coming from, I accepted Quad Mach Gojo the moment the statement dropped regarding black flash, it's just that Quad Mach is fodder to Kakuzu.

Domain can be outran before the cuts become fatal, reality cleave' the omly hope but too telegraphed

If Kakuzu tried to tank his DE then he'd be unaliving himself. Considering mahoraga isn't restricted here and all feats are usable, current cleave/dismantle has evolved to cut through space itself as a result of his fight with Gojo.

Also, almost all of Kakuzu's arsenal has already been used against Sukuna at possibly even higher scales and he was completely unaffected by them (Ex: Jogo, Kashimo, etc). This ends with Kakuzu getting the Kashimo waffle treatment. I see no jutsus possessed by Kakuzu that Sukuna wouldn't outright overpower even without his CT.

@almightyspeaker: thats cool and all but cut wont do anything to the likkes of kakuzu who could survive every cell in his body being cut in half and miharogo is a non fact considering if you oneshot him before he evoles then you win thats why sukuna could defeat him annd kakuzu would just steal sukunas heart and power which is something he does do

Except that would never happen. You're clinging to an impossible scenario here- and even IF "Kakuzu just survives lol" then he'd be surviving in several million pieces over and over again by slashes he won't be able to see or sense so he still doesn't win here. Kakuzu has almost no wincons because Sukuna ALSO has regeneration and virtually infinite CE. Technically speaking, even if Kakuzu somehow survives sukuna's onslaught by use of immortality, Sukuna also has other ways of dealing with him permanently and he would 100% employ them in-character the moment he realizes that Kakuzu isn't dying (Sukuna also has superior battle intelligence).

Show me evidence of Kakuzu's durability negating spatial cutting attacks. Kakuzu's durability is absolutely nothing in comparison to Infinity (an infinite spatial barrier) and Gojo's regeneration of getting hit by countless slashes including decapitation/complete full body bifurcation neigh-instantly (which Sukuna still overcame and eventually killed).

I'd also love to hear how you think Kakuzu is going to be given the opportunity to steal Sukuna's heart/soul or whatever when Mahito who could literally manipulate souls was incapable of doing so to 1 finger sukuna who was within Yuji. Sukuna also has soul damage transferal.

@dogsrus: kakuzu isn’t regening from nothing. Sukuna’s casual slashes cut the soul. Show me kakuzu or anyone in naruto regenerating from having their soul cut.

People really forgetting base Sukuna deals physical and soul damage with his regular slashes lmao.

@ecoblitz: all characters in Naruto can survive soul damage infact deidara literally vaporised his soul yet kabuto could heal it and tsunade could heall orochimaru or make orochimaru a new soul after his arms were sealed with death reaper seal

@ecoblitz: sukuna’s standard slashes can be healed from just fine as we’ve seen a dozen times already. They don’t have the same regen nerfing that the soul split katana has.

Kakuzu’s healing is also very different from traditional regen/RCT. He’s just stitching his body together and uses he spare hearts as spare lives.

@ecoblitz: i can show you better deidaras co literally vaporised his soul yet kabuto could bring him back withedo tensei

and tssunade was literally going to heal orochimarus arms after hiruzen sealed them away from orochi using death reaper seal

@manimalman: RCT can heal the soul. Now show me kakuzu healing from soul damage. Kakuzu can try and stitch his body back together all he wants but once his soul itself is sliced in half he’s cooked.