CaV: Daredevil x Elektra VS Snake x Ocelot

Rules:

• 616 Daredevil and Elektra - @the_hajduk
• Canon Venom Snake and Revolver Ocelot - @sirfizzwhizz
• Standard gear
• In-character
• Random encounter/No knowledge
• Fight in NYC at night
• No interference

@the_hajduk: Cool, I have something up later tomorrow.

T4v please 🙏

TAEP good luck to both of yall

Please TAEP

TEAP

@sirfizzwhizz: I have a post pretty much ready. I am going to sleep on it and post tomorrow.

ok

T4V

Interesting, especially since it's Venom Snake and not one of the two others, who get used in battles most of the time

This Snake is weak af watch me bolo him.

@the_hajduk: @rac95: Hardly weak as fudge, though he is weaker. Still like Raiden and Ocelot level.

@sirfizzwhizz:

A common misconception I see about Daredevil is that he's just another peak human fighter. People often lump him in with the likes of Nightwing, Black Widow, Batman, or even Snake. And these are some of the most skilled people who have ever lived.

But Daredevil has an edge beyond that. His Radar Sense literally gives him superhuman skills.

A lot of people think that Matt's radar is basically echolocation, but I will explain why it is so, so much more.

Matthew's Radar Sense is literally a gift from God. And God makes him feel everything. He lost his sight but gained the world. Daredevil (2019) #20.

And this is not an exaggeration. It is proven in Daredevil (2022) #13 when Matthew dies and goes to Hell. His Radar Sense still reaches everywhere. And he can still feel everything, even down to souls and hellfire. It is literally a God-given ability.

Daredevil knows everything that is happening around him, he knows everything that is happening inside a person's body, and he can even predict what they are thinking or what their intentions are.

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How is this applicable in a fight?

Because Daredevil can read every function and movement of the human body like it's an open book. He can also feel every inch of the environment all at once. He has complete battlefield and spatial awareness.

Frank Castle explains it this way. He doesn't know about Radar Sense, so he just thinks that Daredevil is psychic. He says that Daredevil can predict your every move before you even think it.

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The way Daredevil can do this is by reading your muscle movements with his Radar Sense. He does the same thing to U.S. Agent. Matt explains that he can literally feel every contour of his opponent's body, like they are a sculpture that he is constantly running his hands over without ever needing to touch. He even says that predicting the ricochet of Walker's shield is "incredibly easy."

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Here is a random older comic just to confirm that Daredevil has always been this way, it isn't new. He can feel attacks before they come, and he does not require sight, sound, scent, or any senses at all. Only focus.

He's always had supernatural skills. As stated in The Man Without Fear #1. Matthew's training under Stick entered a realm of near-magic.

Now I know what some of you are thinking. Prediction and muscle reading is all good, but feats are the only thing that matter. What has Daredevil actually accomplished with his fancy prediction ability? Well get ready, cause these next scans are crazy.

His prediction ability is so good that he was able to orchestrate the defeat of a whole team of supervillains that included Bullseye, Crossbones, Bullet, and Rhino. He literally says that out of infinite possibilities, he knows the correct outcome. He did this while surrounded and wearing rags.

You have to read the scans, cause this is crazy.

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Matthew was also in a car crash right before this, and so injured that a normal man probably wouldn't be able to stand. But I won't harp on that, it's already badass, we don't need it to be ridiculous. But here is the proof anyway:

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At this point, we've seen Daredevil beat Punisher, U.S. Agent, and Crossbones. What do they all have in common? Specialized military training and military background... Just like Big Boss.

I don't think those guys are equal to Big Boss in skill, but they do have some undeniable similarities. It is evident that Daredevil has a stylistic advantage over that type of skillset.

Then there is Bullseye. The sharpshooter, master of ricochet, deadly assassin feared around the world. Who does that remind you of? Revolver Ocelot. And what did Daredevil do to Bullseye? Beat him embarrassingly.

I will talk more about Elektra later because I want to keep my posts short. For now just know that she is known to be the world's deadliest assassin, with an ocean of blood on her hands (stated by Kraven the Hunter). She is also known to be the fiercest warrior that The Hand has ever trained, even though The Hand has been operating for thousands of years (stated by Aka, an ancient Hand leader).

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These statements are not exaggerations. Here she is stabbing the hell out of Captain America. She literally looks like she is about to solo the greatest Marvel warrior, when Black Panther intervenes. So she fights two super soldiers at the same time and still barely loses. Wtf? If she can do this to Captain friggin America then she is a threat to anybody on the other team.

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In conclusion, I think that with his Radar Sense, Daredevil can feel every attack before it comes and successfully close the distance on Team Snake, and Snake won't be able to win in H2H because Daredevil is constantly feeling his every muscle movement and predicting his moves before he can even think them. Ocelot is dangerous at range, but Elektra would literally stomp him if she got close.

TAEP, please.

@the_hajduk:

First off lets real talk the ultimate Bromance of Venom Snake and Ocelot. Truly a greater love couple than Daredevil and Elektra.

These two compliment each other well, since both are marksmen and both are martial arts experts in the insane perfect fictional CQC martial art, the real world LINE training/martial art, and Spetsnaz training and martial arts. More important thy have a bit of a range advantage with gear and guns.

So while I know all about Daredevil and Elektra to some degree, and you in turn know these two really well, I will introduce the bromance couple to people who dont know them.

Venom Snake (Phantom Pain, Metal Gear)

Venom Snake was a "fake' Big Boss created by Ocelot to draw fire away from the real Big Boss. Venom Snake was originally one of the few survivors of the Militaires Sans Frontières (MSF) massacre on the original Mother Base. After being severely injured and falling into a coma, the unnamed medic was psycho indoctrinated for years by Ocelot to think and act like the real Big Boss. Forming the new Diamond Dogs, Venom Snake continue the good fight and accomplishing legendary deeds in the Boss's name till finally dying by Solid Snake's hands in Outer Heaven.

Revolver Ocelot (Snake Eater, Phantom Pain, Portable Ops, Solid, Sons of Liberty)

Revolver Ocelot was the baby child of the original The Boss that train Big Boss himself, and son to a powerful psychic The Sorrow. While not a psychic himself, he was born with genes of two huge legendary soldiers. His Upbringing lead him into Spetsnaz and KGB, reaching the highest rank as a child, and then later in life part of the Diamond Dogs, and then after that part of the CIA, as well finally stopping in the super secrete and special force of the Army called Foxhound. The guy is a known legend, insane intelligent at spy works, and consider the greatest Marksmen in the series with hand guns. ocelot is also proven a master martial artist from working under bog boss as well, matching superhumans like Solid Snake himself in a even fight. The guy is a legend, and major player in Metal Gear Lore.

For gear I am using pretty light and standard. Nothing crazy or exotic. Real base level stuff they are suppose to have.

Venom Snake Gear

Sneaking Suit

The Sneaking Suit has noise dampening soles for infiltration, as well high strength armored weave for durability. The Battle Dress adds to the Sneaking Suit bulletproof ceramic plates.

MRS-4 and WU Silence Tranq Pistol.

The Instruction Manual only shows us two weapons as examples to what Venom uses. MRS-4 and a Tranquilizer Wu Pistol.

Combat Knife

Self explanatory. Part of CQC.

INT-Scope

The INT-Scope Venom has can do technical readouts and mark targets. Even see marked targets through obstacles from 100 yards away.

Mechanical Arm Stun Arm

Venom Snake has a highly advance bio mechanical prosthetic arm that he can use in combat. It has four major functions to be upgraded. Stun Arm, Sonar Arm, Rocket Arm, and a special add in Hand of Jehuty. for this battle I am using Stun Arm only though.

Ocelots Gear

Colt Single Action Army Revolvers

Ocelot weapons of choice is dual Colt Single Action Army Revolvers. Ocelot is explain to use a slower muzzle velocity weapon like the colts for maximum damage when they hit their targets. Causing more massive pain and damage when lodge into the body, though .45 Caliber ammo also is known to punch holes through a person too in real life. Its why why the US Army always like Colt's. The bullet type causes major damage to a 9mm, 5.56mm, 12 Gauged, or rounds of smaller caliber popular ammo used.

Martial Art and Tactical Skill

Venom Snake

Venom has all the knowledge and skill hypnotize into his brain for years by Ocelot himself. Knowing all key and major events of Big Boss life.

As Medic, Venom was stated to be Big Boss best soldier out of his army. Train in CQC with the rest of Big Boss soldiers, and counted on for important missions. Ocelot further states through nine years of hypnotherapy that Venom has all the knowledge, memories, and experiences as Big Boss up to that time.

As stated by the creator of CQC for the games, CQC is a brand new from of martial Arts made by Boss and Big Boss together. The Choreographer of Kojima games state the Martial Art is design to be used in areas where guns are not much of use, made to fight multiple enemies in mind, and made to deal with surprise attacks in close quarters as well. It also stated to be the total combat technique for hand to hand with guns and knives worked in. In short, perfection for all close quarter situation with or without weapons.

Venom Snake also was in charge of Diamond Dogs knowing the perfected CQC martial art. Yet every time Venom easily beats down his own highly train men in close quarters fights with the just far superior knowledge of the art. The Diamond Dogs are not fodder at all either. In game they have ratings levels comparable to Venom and Ocelot, and are stated hand pick by Venom from the best soldiers in wars in Afghanistan War and African mercenary lead proxy wars. Only to be drilled and train by Ocelot himself on Mother Base. Still not good enough?

Venom Snake with CQC is able to react, counter, and subdue a enraged Quiet. A pissed off Quiet. Not really holding back. She is a super assassin from XOF, the CIA's counter to US Military FOX, and as such one of the greatest government train killers in the world. On top of that she is a super human in strength and speed via the special Parasites in her body. Yet superior skill wins out this day.

Ocelot

As I mention earlier Ocelot skill is pretty damn outrageous in the training he received and who he fights evenly with in games.

Ocelot is stated to be barley of legal age, yet already commands the most elite unit of Spetsnaz in the GRU. Ocelot is stated to have been in Spetsnaz, Russian Tax Police Elite Swat unit, and KGB. Becoming a master torturer in the KGB. The finally joining Foxhound.

Ocelot easily matches Big Boss in CQC after watching Big Boss use it several times. Learns complicated fighting art through sight alone. Able to mimic it to mastery. Stating he learn some new moves during the match. A useful factor in this match to easily adapt even to the likes of DD and Elektra.

In their final battle we see Ocelot full knowledge of the infamous and near mythical perfect martial art CQC, and even gaining the advantage over Old snake in straight CQC multiple times. ocelot has the moves.

Stats

Venom Snake Speed

Snake in game scene that cannot be skipped goes into Reflex Mode and sees the trajectory of Quiets sniper bullet before it hits his armor. We know thanks to Reflex mode Venom like big boss is able to see bullets in slow motion.

Ocelot Speed

Ocelot and Snake fought this whole battle in the space of time for a Cigar to fall from head height to the floor. Talking dozens of attacks in the span of a split second.

Venom Snake Strength

I kinda touch on the super strength of characters like the parasites and Quiet here, and can elaborate more if need be. Venom is pretty crazy strong.

Ocelot Strength

Snake and Ocelot generate a shockwave with their punches colliding.

Ocelot as a old man is able to smash in the steel hull of Outer Heaven.

Venom Snake Durability

Before being Venom Snake, the Medic takes the brunt of the improvise explosion to the face and body. Filled with shrapnel, and a chunk of metal in his skull. He not only lives, but with his cripple body remains closest thing to Big Boss in physicality.

Ocelot Durability

Ocelot takes multiple blows to the head from Eva, and falls two stories down to the ground. Then Ocelot takes right after this the full weight and momentum of this motorcycle to the face. Still conscious.

Ocelot has his hand cut off, and then gets caught up in a C4 blast against the wall. He is fine and escapes.

Main Discussion

Lets get into the meat and potatoes, you characters are martial arts experts, so are mine. Your characters have weapons, so does mine. Your team has major teamwork, so does mine. Your characters are pretty superhuman in strength, speed, and durability. So is mine!!!! Thats where the major comparisons stop. Biggest difference between my team has GUNS!!!! American GUNS!!!!!!!! So the range advantage is stronger than yours while same time my team is as good in close combat as well. This edges my team over yours. Both my guys are damn near Bullseye level marksmen. Firing shots even in close combat thanks to CQC.

I think in the end they will overwhelm your team whether at range or up close. Which leads to them winning. Alright nick lets compare notes, feats, and scenarios how this will go down.

@oceanmaster21: @alekos: @jaylinfreeman: @kreigastartis: @geekryan: @rac95: @andromeda1001: first posts are up.

@sirfizzwhizz: Great TAEP

@sirfizzwhizz: Cool! But please only tag me for when voting is open, not for each post :)

@geekryan: np

@sirfizzwhizz:

Addressing Guns

Guns are plain useless against Daredevil. Another credit to his Radar Sense, he can not only track bullets in midair, but he feels the air currents that they push ahead allowing him to know the bullets exact trajectory in advance. He can also feel the trajectory of the gun and predict its activation before it is even fired.

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He even says that predicting movements is easier against someone who never misses. Making him the kryptonite to Revolver Ocelot. Daredevil can actually deflect the bullets that Ocelot fires back at Snake, which is how he took out Crossbones and Bullseye.

I know Snake can dodge bullets but he might not see this move coming. Picture yourself as Snake, Ocelot is firing straight ahead, then all of the sudden the bullet miraculously turns around and heads right for you.

Elektra doesn't have radar sense, but she can still deflect all of Bullseye's bullets and close the distance on him. Or just bounce his bullets back into him. She will do the same against Ocelot.

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I gotta be honest. Lots of Metal Gear characters deflect bullets. But to perfectly deflect the bullets so that they ricochet back at the person who fired is next level. This shows more than just speed, this is a skill and accuracy feat.

Every bullet that Ocelot fires, is more likely to hit his own teammate than it is to hit Daredevil or Elektra.

Equipment

All the rest of your gear is just as irrelevant against Daredevil's Radar Sense. Snake has to rely on a Stun Arm in order to deliver an electric shock to his enemies or put them to sleep. Daredevil can just strike a nerve cluster that makes people fall asleep, or makes them feel like they are on fire.

Snake has to rely on an INT-Scope in order to scan his opponents and gain information. Daredevil is doing that passively, judging your heartbeat, reading movements, judging your energy levels, he even knows things about you that you do not know about yourself. He will sniff the air one time and know everything that Snake and Ocelot are carrying.

When meeting Captain America, he was able to draw conclusions about Cap's abilities based on his heartbeat, breathing, and muscle movements. His verdict was that Cap is sloppy, but fast.

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Snake relies on technology to replicate what Daredevil can do on his own.

Even Snake's armor is irrelevant because Daredevil could just wear his own armor! So either they both have armor, or nobody has armor.

Martial Art Skill

I have a problem with you using Liquid Ocelot's feats to represent Revolver Ocelot.

Liquid Ocelot is the perfect fusion of two separate beings, Liquid Snake and Revolver Ocelot. You explained how Medic was able to inherit all the skills and knowledge of Big Boss through hypnotherapy. You know that Ocelot did the same thing and took on the skills of Liquid.

Revolver Ocelot as himself cannot match Solid Snake in CQC. Even the fused Liquid Ocelot lost to Solid Snake, so Revolver Ocelot as himself doesn't scale at all.

Ocelot's best showing is the fact that he learned CQC through observation, which is not a small feat. Ocelot almost has a Taskmaster-like ability to pick up new techniques just after seeing them once.

So here is a scan of Elektra oneshotting Taskmaster and basically calling him a nonfactor.

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These scans pretty much shut down any idea of Ocelot threatening Elektra in CQC.

Venom Snake is more of a threat. But his best win is over Quiet. Daredevil and Elektra both have better wins than Quiet. Elektra recently beat Typhoid Mary and negged her powers.

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Typhoid is the only character I've seen literally dance around bullets. Then she does the most awesome bullet timing trick I think I've ever seen. On some Devil May Cry energy. Quiet isn't on this level.

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The only Metal Gear character who moves like Typhoid Mary is Vamp. And Venom Snake doesn't have any scaling to Vamp.

Of course Daredevil can beat Mary as well. But that is honestly mid for him. I can show you Daredevil beating Sabretooth, Black Panther, Gorgon, Spider-Man, the Rhino, MEPHISTO for crying out loud. The spectacular wins are endless, a lot of Marvel characters job to Daredevil.

Even in the most recent issue of Daredevil, from Daredevil (2023) #7 which came out last month, Daredevil got the win over Wolverine. This wasn't easy either, Daredevil had to drag the fight all the way to the bay where he could drown Wolverine. They fought for basically the entire issue.

Daredevil fans are EATING.

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Stats

Big Boss's reflex mode is how Daredevil operates all the time. His Radar Sense is always active. Imagine how much stronger Big Boss would be if reflex mode was constantly on.

In fact, reflex mode only slows time down to the milliseconds, or microseconds in the most extreme cases. Whereas Daredevil can apparently time events to the nanosecond. (This is the most wanked out interpretation of both characters, I don't believe either are FTL, but even in the most wanked out interpretation, Daredevil is a tier faster)

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I will give you that having an entire fight before a cigar hits the ground is a very good and unique feat. But again, that is Liquid Ocelot. I know it's Ocelot's body, but the enhanced fighting skill is going to increase his combat speed. Regular Ocelot won't be as good as Liquid Ocelot in anything.

As for strength, Daredevil mogs your guys. Straight up. Daredevil's base strength feat is flipping over a limousine that was filled with people. This is inexcusable, usually lifting cars is a line that peak humans won't cross, but for Daredevil, it is his most famous showing.

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Elektra never lifted a vehicle but she did kick a man hard enough that she almost toppled over a van. The metal crumbles, like how Ocelot dented the Outer Haven hull.

I know this door isn't as strong as the reinforced Outer Haven plate which Ocelot dented, but I'd still say Elektra is comparable. What do you think?

Bump

@the_hajduk: Really good counter!!!

t4v

@jaylinfreeman: I told you guys that I knew how to shut this man down. I’ve debated him too many times, I see every move coming.

@sirfizzwhizz: You’re cooked buddy.

@the_hajduk:

Counter Points

Addressing Guns

Guns are plain useless against Daredevil. Another credit to his Radar Sense, he can not only track bullets in midair, but he feels the air currents that they push ahead allowing him to know the bullets exact trajectory in advance. He can also feel the trajectory of the gun and predict its activation before it is even fired.

He even says that predicting movements is easier against someone who never misses. Making him the kryptonite to Revolver Ocelot.

False. First off, Ocelot does miss time to time lol. Second, the reason Bullseye is easy to deal with is because DD has so many fights with him, that's why Bullseye is predictable. Matt never dealt with ocelot anyway, not that it matters as Ocelot and Elektra are second fiddle to Snake and DD anyway.

Daredevil can actually deflect the bullets that Ocelot fires back at Snake, which is how he took out Crossbones and Bullseye.

I know Snake can dodge bullets but he might not see this move coming. Picture yourself as Snake, Ocelot is firing straight ahead, then all of the sudden the bullet miraculously turns around and heads right for you.

Except unlike crossbones both Venom and Ocelot are bullet timers. They would see the bullet deflected and just react according. I mean this one was not all hard to counter. Ocelot is very casual bullet timer. VERY casual.

Olga as the new Cyborg Ninja shows skill and speed with the HF blade as she twice parries full auto gun fire with her sword from fellow Spetsnaz soldiers. Redirecting the bullets. Better than Daredevil did in your scan.

AND YET! Here we see Ocelot reacts to Olga's surprise attack with HF blade. The same Cyborg Ninja woman who nearly match Solid Snake in speed and parries bullets with her sword.

Solidus parries 5.56 rounds with his arm on full auto. No issues. Even better Solidus shown to counter direct Gatling gun fire, and deflects a bullet to cut Solid Snake's handcuffs. Bullets roughly Mach 2-3 range depending on the Gatling weapon system. So much better than anything Daredevil done. EVER!!!

AND YET!!!!!! Here Ocelot is stated and shown fast enough to threaten Solidus to put a bullet into his head faster than he can activate his suit and that sweet superspeed. Meaning Ocelot skill with his weapon and combat speed is on par or better than what Solidus can pull off.

As for Venom, both Venom Snake and Big Boss in MGS5 have the same bullet time speeds. I showed how fast Venom is in seeing 7.52 Mach 2 sniper rounds before they hit him.

Or how bullet speed fast Parasite characters are.

The Skull Unit are stated and shown to possess super speed. Speed is one of their main trademarks. Moving faster than eyesight on average and stated flat out too fast to be hit by bullets.

Yet venom counter them easy too. As fast and tough as these Skulls are, in cinematic Reflex Mode we see Venom is able to react, counter, and kill them quickly. Even disarming them of their weapons to counter attack. So ballets deflected back? So what? they lose alot of speed when "deflected" and these characters are as fast as Daredevil and Elektra in every way. The difference is they have insane super speed and range options which will press hard DD and Elektra no matter how you wanna spin it.

Elektra doesn't have radar sense, but she can still deflect all of Bullseye's bullets and close the distance on him. Or just bounce his bullets back into him. She will do the same against Ocelot.

I gotta be honest. Lots of Metal Gear characters deflect bullets. But to perfectly deflect the bullets so that they ricochet back at the person who fired is next level. This shows more than just speed, this is a skill and accuracy feat.

Every bullet that Ocelot fires, is more likely to hit his own teammate than it is to hit Daredevil or Elektra.

This is shit Raiden and Solidus done as well. With accuracy. So doesn't really matter to Ocelot or Venom really. The deflection of the bullet will be slower and even easier to dodge. meanwhile dodging the accuracy and range attacks of people on the same speed caliber will be harder than with crossbones or some mook fodder they do it to. Thats simple science.

Equipment

All the rest of your gear is just as irrelevant against Daredevil's Radar Sense. Snake has to rely on a Stun Arm in order to deliver an electric shock to his enemies or put them to sleep. Daredevil can just strike a nerve cluster that makes people fall asleep, or makes them feel like they are on fire.

Snake has to rely on an INT-Scope in order to scan his opponents and gain information.

I dont even bring up the INT Scope because its game mechanics, and something I never needed to use in game, only skill less hack players...... I mean you Nick! You saw this screen alot!

So don't confuse your skill with the actual lore skill of the characters know what I mean?

Daredevil is doing that passively, judging your heartbeat, reading movements, judging your energy levels, he even knows things about you that you do not know about yourself. He will sniff the air one time and know everything that Snake and Ocelot are carrying.

Wow that's cool, like no one in Metal Gear can read movements, muscles, body, ect.. oh wait...

Vamp is able to read the muscles of a foe to predict their next move perfectly, and Raiden beat this guy who in turn Ocelot embarrassed Raiden in their fight.

Cyborg Ninja Grey Fox is stated able to sense minuet movements in the air to predict incoming attacks almost like Rader sense of Daredevil. Ocelot was able to escape and survive this guys attacks on him in their second encounter, and this guy would destroy Daredevil ten times over.

So lets not pretend super senses don't exist in MGS, you know they do, and it never makes that huge of a deal overall.

When meeting Captain America, he was able to draw conclusions about Cap's abilities based on his heartbeat, breathing, and muscle movements. His verdict was that Cap is sloppy, but fast.

Funny you mention Cap America, who was far inferior in skill and abilities in that particular comic's timeline, yet Cap was competing fine with daredevil there anyway. Regardless of this god divine Radar Sense you keep boasting that never kept DD from losing.

Snake relies on technology to replicate what Daredevil can do on his own.

Sure and with simple tech someone like Punisher can beat Daredevil as well.

I think the weapons and stun arm is better, as well Snake and Ocelot better marksmen and hand to hand fighters than Punisher.

The Stun Arm can shock several targets from a short distance. KOing them all with a single electric blast. This would be insane hard to dodge and avoid for either of your characters, and the Stun Arm can be used in normal punches and attacks as well.

Even Snake's armor is irrelevant because Daredevil could just wear his own armor! So either they both have armor, or nobody has armor.

I mean if you think its standard, go ahead wear armor. However if you want to add gear to the fight, then Snake has bit more gear to rely on. D-Dog, Hail-MGR, Honey Bee, D-Walker, Sleeping Gas devices, and more. So since you want to add armor I will gladly add these things.

HAIL MGR-4

The special design HAIL is a custom grenade launcher automatic gun form that rapid fires mini grenade warheads. Not a real weapon except in MGSV universe. Deflect mini grenades on full auto. See how that works for DD or Elektra.

Sleeping Gas

The Sleep Grenades are powerful sleeping gas devices made with that magical doesn't exist in real life soporific sleeping gas in MGS universe. imagine fighting and all of a sudden this gets dropped on ya, or in the area you are standing in. Doing one of two things. Forcing you to inhale and instant KO, or forcing you to relocate where Snake wants ya to relocate. Either way a instant KO device or area of control device.

Wu Silent Pistol

Single shot Winduger as you know comes in lethal or tranq mode. In tranq mode it delivers a chemical agent with the bullet that immobilizes targets. best part is the semi automatic pistol version that only venom Snake gets in Metal Gear lore. The Burkov.

This would be as potent as the Mk.22 is a single shot tranquilizer used by big boss before hand. Either way a instant KO weapon that can be used in close quarters combat. Where dodging and deflection is near impossible.

D-Dog

Dog is a fully train MWD (Military Working Dog). Able to fetch, attack, drag down, or sniff out targets. Can also locate mines and bombs.

Dog is skilled enough to use a combat knife in battle to slice the throats of foes and stab them. Dog also can stun foes with built in taser attacks. so now DD has this killer super dog to worry about as well. As military personnel call it, a furry missile to utilize in combat.

Martial Art Skill

I have a problem with you using Liquid Ocelot's feats to represent Revolver Ocelot.

Liquid Ocelot is the perfect fusion of two separate beings, Liquid Snake and Revolver Ocelot. You explained how Medic was able to inherit all the skills and knowledge of Big Boss through hypnotherapy. You know that Ocelot did the same thing and took on the skills of Liquid.

Revolver Ocelot as himself cannot match Solid Snake in CQC. Even the fused Liquid Ocelot lost to Solid Snake, so Revolver Ocelot as himself doesn't scale at all.

Ocelot's best showing is the fact that he learned CQC through observation, which is not a small feat. Ocelot almost has a Taskmaster-like ability to pick up new techniques just after seeing them once.

This is false. Ocelot already study and learn CQC fighting big boss and by the time of Phantom Pain has learn and worked directly with Big Boss. He was also there with Diamond Dogs were CQC was practiced religiously. By everyone, and ocelot was head trainer of Mother Base! He already had the skill and knowledge, thats why he effortlessly defeated Raiden in game 2 in hand to hand combat. Which I showed. There is nothing Liquid Ocelot had that Revolver already didn't possessed, except Liquid was old as dirt and past his freaking prime! There is that, which makes Revolver more dangerous.

So here is a scan of Elektra oneshotting Taskmaster and basically calling him a nonfactor.

Who hasn't one shot Taskmaster? No really, who has not. Task Master is great on paper but gets defeated and outplayed by Captain America, Dare Devil, Spider Woman, Hawkeye, Elektra, Iron Fist, Deadpool, so on and so on. He rarely wins. Meanwhile who has beaten Ocelot? Old Snake did in a close fight, Big Boss did when Ocelot was super new and green. Outside those two examples, no one outplayed or beat Ocelot really, not even in MGS where cyborg ninja Fox only sneak attack ocelot to get a advantage, and Solid Snake was unable to win that fight at first till Fox intervene. When looking at win loss ratios Ocelot has beaten many or gave close fights to metal gears best.

Venom Snake is more of a threat. But his best win is over Quiet. Daredevil and Elektra both have better wins than Quiet. Elektra recently beat Typhoid Mary and negged her powers.

Typhoid is the only character I've seen literally dance around bullets. Then she does the most awesome bullet timing trick I think I've ever seen. On some Devil May Cry energy. Quiet isn't on this level.

While Quiet is not on this level as you claim, Quiet has abilities exceed Mary's own. Super Speed, Bullseye Accuracy, Super Healing, Super Strength, Perfect Optic Camo, as well being super train assassin before getting her powers. You are comparing apples to oranges. I will tell you this know what venom Snake also fought better than Mary? squads of parasite Soldiers in hand to hand.

Psycho Mantis and Man on Fire combo.

Metal Gear Salanthropus piloted by Liquid Snake.

You know both things that would stomp Elektra and Daredevil when comparing foes in a straight fight. Venom Snake tactics, skills, and batman like versatility keeps him in the fight and punch way above his weight class.

The only Metal Gear character who moves like Typhoid Mary is Vamp. And Venom Snake doesn't have any scaling to Vamp.

cough cough, solidus Snake, Cyborg Ninja, Raiden, Solid Snake, Gene, Null, and more....

Of course Daredevil can beat Mary as well. But that is honestly mid for him. I can show you Daredevil beating Sabretooth, Black Panther, Gorgon, Spider-Man, the Rhino, MEPHISTO for crying out loud. The spectacular wins are endless, a lot of Marvel characters job to Daredevil.

Yeah yeah, you can show me DD beating those guys. I can show ya Ocelot beating or matching evenly Raiden, Solidus, Old Snake, Solid Snake, Big Boss, ect. I can show venom beating flat out Psycho Mantis and Man on Fire, squads of Parasite soldiers, Quiet, a super METAL GEAR on foot, ect ect ect....

We can compare dicks and the names of others, but in the end NOTHING Daredevil or Elektra fought and done is not powered by plot, as they lost fights against those characters too or barely beat them. Like Bullseye, Punisher, Wolverine, Captain America, ect....

We are here to compare actual feats, tactics, skill, and gear.

Even in the most recent issue of Daredevil, from Daredevil (2023) #7 which came out last month, Daredevil got the win over Wolverine. This wasn't easy either, Daredevil had to drag the fight all the way to the bay where he could drown Wolverine. They fought for basically the entire issue.

Daredevil fans are EATING.

Pretty sure Venom can easy beat Wolverine too since tranqs work on Wolverine in the past and thats all venom needs to do. As Stan Lee once said...

"And there's one answer to all of that, its so simple, anyone should know this... The person who would win in a fight is the person the WRITER wants to win!!! If I want to have a story about the Thing from Fantastic Four, and he gets into a BIG fight with Spiderman. People are gonna ask 'well who would win?" - Stan Lee

Here is another issue with Daredevil comics, the MULTIPLE WRITERS. See Metal Gear is 95% written by Hideo Kojima and 100% produce by Hideo Kojima. In other words its consistent. Can you say the same for Marvel comics DD who gone through 100s of writers with varying feats and skill showings all over the place? You are eating good now, doesn't erase the 1000s of anti feats by past writers. My characters don't have that flaw.

Stats

Big Boss's reflex mode is how Daredevil operates all the time. His Radar Sense is always active. Imagine how much stronger Big Boss would be if reflex mode was constantly on.

It is always on. They have insane reaction times. The reflex feat with quiets bullet is not player mechanics, that shit simply cutscene and happens automatically. Its was not "activated" at all. Same for other cutscenes in game.

In fact, reflex mode only slows time down to the milliseconds, or microseconds in the most extreme cases. Whereas Daredevil can apparently time events to the nanosecond. (This is the most wanked out interpretation of both characters, I don't believe either are FTL, but even in the most wanked out interpretation, Daredevil is a tier faster)

Really?

Pure Electricity through the air is light speed. Ocelot reacts to that fine. So now what? See I can wank too.

I will give you that having an entire fight before a cigar hits the ground is a very good and unique feat. But again, that is Liquid Ocelot. I know it's Ocelot's body, but the enhanced fighting skill is going to increase his combat speed. Regular Ocelot won't be as good as Liquid Ocelot in anything.

No, if anything Liquid is inferior from age. Facts and basic science of the body worsening not improving.

As for strength, Daredevil mogs your guys. Straight up. Daredevil's base strength feat is flipping over a limousine that was filled with people. This is inexcusable, usually lifting cars is a line that peak humans won't cross, but for Daredevil, it is his most famous showing.

Thats a good outlier, care to show me other feats on that same level since the character is you know written by hundred of writers? I mean Man on Fire did throw this fire truck half a mile.

Yet again basic foe for Venom. Solid Snake is able to fight Grey fox who has strength to lift 500 tons.

Snake is even shown taking several hits, but dealing several of his own to put cyborg Ninja down. Same Snake Ocelot can fight evenly with. I mean Ocelot can punch craters i ship grade armor hulls as I showed earlier post with his older decrepit body!

Elektra never lifted a vehicle but she did kick a man hard enough that she almost toppled over a van. The metal crumbles, like how Ocelot dented the Outer Haven hull.

The Outer Heaven Hull is armored touch, like ram a dock with no damage armored touch. like tank Battleship canons tough. Elektra's car metal is not the same.

@oceanmaster21:@alekos:@jaylinfreeman:@kreigastartis:@rac95:@andromeda1001: Second posts are up.

@sirfizzwhizz:

Rebuttals

Except unlike crossbones both Venom and Ocelot are bullet timers. They would see the bullet deflected and just react according. I mean this one was not all hard to counter. Ocelot is very casual bullet timer. VERY casual.

Olga as the new Cyborg Ninja shows skill and speed with the HF blade as she twice parries full auto gun fire with her sword from fellow Spetsnaz soldiers. Redirecting the bullets. Better than Daredevil did in your scan.

AND YET! Here we see Ocelot reacts to Olga's surprise attack with HF blade. The same Cyborg Ninja woman who nearly match Solid Snake in speed and parries bullets with her sword.

Solidus parries 5.56 rounds with his arm on full auto. No issues. Even better Solidus shown to counter direct Gatling gun fire, and deflects a bullet to cut Solid Snake's handcuffs. Bullets roughly Mach 2-3 range depending on the Gatling weapon system. So much better than anything Daredevil done. EVER!!!

AND YET!!!!!! Here Ocelot is stated and shown fast enough to threaten Solidus to put a bullet into his head faster than he can activate his suit and that sweet superspeed. Meaning Ocelot skill with his weapon and combat speed is on par or better than what Solidus can pull off.

I think this just proves that Ocelot has great combat speed. It doesn't prove that he can dodge his own bullet ricocheted back at him. Combat speed and bullet dodging are different stats imo.

Crossbones has great combat speed, being basically equal to Captain America's combat speed. But that didn't save him from Daredevil's ricochet.

Bullseye has great combat speed and actually is a bullet timer himself. He still got caught by Elektra's ricochet. Because it is a move that you don't see coming.

The Skull Unit are stated and shown to possess super speed. Speed is one of their main trademarks. Moving faster than eyesight on average and stated flat out too fast to be hit by bullets.

Yet venom counter them easy too. As fast and tough as these Skulls are, in cinematic Reflex Mode we see Venom is able to react, counter, and kill them quickly. Even disarming them of their weapons to counter attack. So ballets deflected back? So what? they lose alot of speed when "deflected" and these characters are as fast as Daredevil and Elektra in every way. The difference is they have insane super speed and range options which will press hard DD and Elektra no matter how you wanna spin it.

Again this is just combat speed. Venom Snake doesn't have any good bullet dodging feats. Bullseye has way better feats of bullet timing, and this trick even worked on him.

The deflection of the bullet will be slower and even easier to dodge.

That is true. But the move also has a surprise factor going for it.

I dont even bring up the INT Scope because its game mechanics, and something I never needed to use in game, only skill less hack players...... I mean you Nick! You saw this screen alot!

So don't confuse your skill with the actual lore skill of the characters know what I mean?

Bro I would school you in MGO2. Stealth Deathmatch or Sneaking Mission. I'd send your whole squad to meet The Boss.

Wow that's cool, like no one in Metal Gear can read movements, muscles, body, ect.. oh wait...

Vamp is able to read the muscles of a foe to predict their next move perfectly, and Raiden beat this guy who in turn Ocelot embarrassed Raiden in their fight.

Nobody on your team ever fought Vamp. You've got layers of scaling between your team and anyone who can counter muscle reading.

Cyborg Ninja Grey Fox is stated able to sense minuet movements in the air to predict incoming attacks almost like Rader sense of Daredevil. Ocelot was able to escape and survive this guys attacks on him in their second encounter, and this guy would destroy Daredevil ten times over.

Ocelot has no scaling to Gray Fox. Gray Fox took Ocelot's hand, as well as his dignity.

Bringing up Gray Fox is counterintuitive to your point. That would be like if I brought up all the times Daredevil got his ass kicked by Captain America and said "See? He can fight super soldiers!"

So lets not pretend super senses don't exist in MGS, you know they do, and it never makes that huge of a deal overall.

Nobody exists in MGS who is like Daredevil.

Daredevil has the sensory abilities of Vamp, Gray Fox, and Gene combined imo. Likely beyond that.

Funny you mention Cap America, who was far inferior in skill and abilities in that particular comic's timeline, yet Cap was competing fine with daredevil there anyway. Regardless of this god divine Radar Sense you keep boasting that never kept DD from losing.

Everyone has bad matchups. Cap seems to have Daredevil's number. That is something I've noticed from reading more Marvel comics.

But it doesn't stop Daredevil from BEING the bad matchup for characters like Sabretooth, Wolverine, Black Panther, Taskmaster, Luke Cage, Punisher, Black Widow, and Spider-Man.

Sure and with simple tech someone like Punisher can beat Daredevil as well.

Punisher had prep time in that comic. He can beat the whole Marvel universe when he has prep, of course he beat Daredevil.

This match of Daredevil vs Snake is a random encounter though.

Snake and Ocelot better marksmen and hand to hand fighters than Punisher.

Highly debatable. And Daredevil usually smashes Punisher with no prep.

I mean if you think its standard, go ahead wear armor. However if you want to add gear to the fight, then Snake has bit more gear to rely on. D-Dog, Hail-MGR, Honey Bee, D-Walker, Sleeping Gas devices, and more. So since you want to add armor I will gladly add these things.

Murdock has a cell phone with Spider-Man, the Hulk, and Reed Richards all on speed dial (those guys are all Matt's personal friends).

This is false. Ocelot already study and learn CQC fighting big boss and by the time of Phantom Pain has learn and worked directly with Big Boss. He was also there with Diamond Dogs were CQC was practiced religiously. By everyone, and ocelot was head trainer of Mother Base! He already had the skill and knowledge, thats why he effortlessly defeated Raiden in game 2 in hand to hand combat. Which I showed. There is nothing Liquid Ocelot had that Revolver already didn't possessed, except Liquid was old as dirt and past his freaking prime! There is that, which makes Revolver more dangerous.

Ocelot definitely knew CQC. I agree with you there.

All I am saying is that all of Liquid's skills and knowledge would have boosted him.

You acknowledged this fact when you explained how Venom Snake (Medic) inherited all of Big Boss's skills.

That is why Liquid Ocelot's fight with Old Snake (which Ocelot lost) is unusable here.

The Raiden win is a good feat though, I forgot he did that.

Who hasn't one shot Taskmaster? No really, who has not. Task Master is great on paper but gets defeated and outplayed by Captain America, Dare Devil, Spider Woman, Hawkeye, Elektra, Iron Fist, Deadpool, so on and so on. He rarely wins.

lol I agree that Taskmaster is a jobber. But that win for Elektra is probably better than any of Ocelot's wins.

Meanwhile who has beaten Ocelot? Old Snake did in a close fight, Big Boss did when Ocelot was super new and green. Outside those two examples, no one outplayed or beat Ocelot really,

You ask me who has beaten Ocelot? He loses almost every fight!

He was emasculated by EVA.

Gray Fox took his hand as well as his dignity.

He gave Solid Snake and Big Boss good fights sure, but he loses to both of them.

He even lost to Liquid for possession of his own body.

Who has beaten Elektra recently? Only the combination of Captain America and Black Panther. And she was literally stabbing Captain America repeatedly when it was 1-on-1.

Gallery

Otherwise, she recently beat Kraven.

Gallery

Stick.

Gallery

Two Bullseyes at the same time.

Gallery

Daredevil.

Gallery

And Iron Man.

Gallery

Thats a good outlier, care to show me other feats on that same level since the character is you know written by hundred of writers?

Just a couple months ago he was able to knock down a raging She-Hulk.

I have more superhuman level feats like this too.

It's probably inconsistent though. Daredevil is not class 100. He is peak human.

I have more reasonable feats, like throwing a grown man as a projectile. He was also able to lift a couch and juggernaut through 12 ninja at once, which is pretty crazy when you think about it.

Gallery

So either way, if we use outlier feats, or their more reasonable feats, Daredevil looks a lot stronger than Venom Snake.

Conclusion

My team of Daredevil x Elektra has the better strength/speed, and the better record of H2H wins. Therefore there is a high likelihood of my team winning in a H2H fight.

Your team has the most impressive feats with their equipment. But due to Radar Sense and ninja training, Daredevil x Elektra are built to disarm those weapons and force the fight into H2H. The training that Daredevil and Elektra both received hardcounters guns. They are not just generic bullet timers, they have specific skills and techniques for making themselves impossible to hit.

She just has to do this for five seconds:

Until she gets close enough to do this:

Daredevil speaks for himself. But if you are still thinking that there is any chance at all for Daredevil to be shot here, let me conclude on one more little known fact about the man without fear.

Did you know that Daredevil himself is actually the best marksman in the Marvel Universe? It was shown recently when he outclassed Punisher at the one thing Punisher is supposed to be best at, and later, did the same thing to Bullseye.

So if he's better than Punisher and also better than Bullseye, then he is clearly the best marksman in the Marvel Universe. And it makes sense because he has Radar Sense.

This means that Daredevil could likely outduel Snake OR Ocelot. Even in a fair exchange. At the one thing they are supposed to be best at. Snake takes a shot, and Daredevil throws his billy club. Daredevil's shot will be the one that lands.

Gallery

Gallery

@the_hajduk:

The best friends duo!

Final Counters

I think this just proves that Ocelot has great combat speed. It doesn't prove that he can dodge his own bullet ricocheted back at him. Combat speed and bullet dodging are different stats imo.

Not really. If you can physically move and see a sonic speedy fist or electric attack coming, and react to it, then you can a bullet moving at same speed. Its basic science. Its like saying I can react to a human fist moving at 80 mph, but not a baseball? Worst part is bullets have longer travel times for greater reaction than fists or swords in your face.

Crossbones has great combat speed, being basically equal to Captain America's combat speed. But that didn't save him from Daredevil's ricochet.

if he truly was equal to Caps speed then he would be fast enough to react. Thus debunking the claim he is equals with Cap. As we know skill and raw speed are required things, and clearly Crossbones does not have it. Where Ocelot does by scaling and feats. So bringing up Crossbones is useless.

Bullseye has great combat speed and actually is a bullet timer himself. He still got caught by Elektra's ricochet. Because it is a move that you don't see coming.

Again this is either a anti feat for Bullseye, the issue with tons of writers on these characters that mGS does not suffer from, or we accept Bullseye is slower than Snake and Ocelot. Since both reacted to bullet speeds and faster thang without getting hit or injured.

Again this is just combat speed. Venom Snake doesn't have any good bullet dodging feats. Bullseye has way better feats of bullet timing, and this trick even worked on him.

Combat Speed is reaction speed. It literally requires reaction.

That is true. But the move also has a surprise factor going for it.

Considering Ocelot is a ricocheted master himself.

Ocelot is stated able to make deadly trick shots, even on Big Boss.

Ocelot in both MGS and Twin Snakes games is shown able to ricocheted bullets off walls to hit Solid Snake behind cover. Pressing Solid Snake hard with his abilities to the point Snake could not get a good counter in.

Ocelot takes out a KGB operative with a sweet ricocheted.

Ocelot announces a three bank trick shot, and nails Raiden's gun out of his hands. Raiden who deflect automatic matching bullets with a sword consistently.

So unlike Bullseye Ocleot regularly tags or presses characters with the same skill and speed as DD and Elektra where Bullseye fails at it. So by consistency and feats Ocelot in ways > Bullseye in track record of accuracy. I dont see why his bullets deflected or DD bouncing his batons will be that surprising to him. We already establish these attacks will be seen on near slow motion to both of my characters.

Bro I would school you in MGO2. Stealth Deathmatch or Sneaking Mission. I'd send your whole squad to meet The Boss.

lol :)

Nobody on your team ever fought Vamp. You've got layers of scaling between your team and anyone who can counter muscle reading.

Wrong, Ocelot fought both Snake and Raiden, characters Ocelot beat fine, and both those characters fought and beaten move readers. There is no reason Move Reader would be a issue for Ocelot or at the least show he beats those that beat Move Readers anyway. Ocelot also straight up dealt with Grey Fox a second encounter with Fox unable to kill Ocelot, and Fox is several times the stats of DD with ability to read air currents for attacks.

Venom has all memories and ability to fight Gene as Big Boss has. Gene who moves so fast to defy move readers that read your mind like Ursala.

Point being there is enough comparableness in the crazy zanny MGS universe and lore that Ocelot and Venom dealt with. Ocelot and Venom know all about mind readers in fights, muscles readers in combat, ect ect and all MGS characters on the level of Solid Snake and Big Boss deal with these kinds of characters fine in combat. I dont see why DD will be the one that changes all this.

Ocelot has no scaling to Gray Fox. Gray Fox took Ocelot's hand, as well as his dignity.

Bringing up Gray Fox is counterintuitive to your point. That would be like if I brought up all the times Daredevil got his ass kicked by Captain America and said "See? He can fight super soldiers!"

He sure does scale to Gray Fox since Ocelot scales higher than Raiden, contends as proven with Solidus, and flat out beaten or stalemated Solid Snake who has in fact match Grey Fox and won. So.....

Nobody exists in MGS who is like Daredevil.

Daredevil has the sensory abilities of Vamp, Gray Fox, and Gene combined imo. Likely beyond that.

And yet DD has lost or almost beaten by the likes of Elektra, Iron Fist, Captain America, Spider Man, Bullseye, King Pin, and Punisher in fights. So its hardly as great of a ability as you make it. Useful, sure, but not unbeatable.

Everyone has bad matchups. Cap seems to have Daredevil's number. That is something I've noticed from reading more Marvel comics.

But it doesn't stop Daredevil from BEING the bad matchup for characters like Sabretooth, Wolverine, Black Panther, Taskmaster, Luke Cage, Punisher, Black Widow, and Spider-Man.

Again thats just proves my point on Marvel comics insane bad consistency which Metal Gear does not suffer from. You cannot say "Look how god almighty powerful DD is here and here" and ignore the low ends that are as abundant as his high ends.

Punisher had prep time in that comic. He can beat the whole Marvel universe when he has prep, of course he beat Daredevil.

This match of Daredevil vs Snake is a random encounter though.

Punisher with prep failed horribly against Daken, Wolverine, Sentry, Inhumans, Spider Man, and more. So dont give me this Punisher has prep of course he wins. Even without prep Punisher has given decent fight to DD and Elektra. With some mediocre tech Punisher easy beat DD. That happen. Meanwhile the tech and weapons Venom has are faaaar superior.

Highly debatable. And Daredevil usually smashes Punisher with no prep.

Not really. Punisher never makes trick shots. Punisher a better sniper maybe, but cannot trick shot to save his life. Punisher is also flat out not as good hand to hand as Ocelot or Venom period.

Murdock has a cell phone with Spider-Man, the Hulk, and Reed Richards all on speed dial (those guys are all Matt's personal friends).

Venom Snake has Nuclear Missiles, Mother Base with 1000s of Big Boss lite S Class Soldiers, and straight BFR Wormhole Magic that take out everyone mention. So...

Ocelot definitely knew CQC. I agree with you there.

All I am saying is that all of Liquid's skills and knowledge would have boosted him.

You acknowledged this fact when you explained how Venom Snake (Medic) inherited all of Big Boss's skills.

That is why Liquid Ocelot's fight with Old Snake (which Ocelot lost) is unusable here.

The Raiden win is a good feat though, I forgot he did that.

How would he have Liquids knowledge and skills though? Only reason he had Big Boss knowledge and skill is because Big Boss was physically there to tell Ocelot and show Ocelot. Liquid and Ocelot never had that relationship or kept touch at all from what we seen. Liquid have no reason to share anything with Ocelot. All Ocelot could do was mimic the psych profiles on Liquid and his mannerisms. I need to see serious proof that Liquid indulge Ocelot Liquids knowledge pool and fighting techniques. Everything Ocelot learn about Liquid was profiles and first hand watching Liquid. Thats it.

lol I agree that Taskmaster is a jobber. But that win for Elektra is probably better than any of Ocelot's wins.

Disagree. I will admit Ocelot vs Elektra is the side show here, the main show is Venom and Matt.

You ask me who has beaten Ocelot? He loses almost every fight!

He was emasculated by EVA.

Ocelot as a child and still learning how to fight and gun sling? Ocelot learn so much in that game to become the man he is by time of MGS2 and MGS4.

Gray Fox took his hand as well as his dignity.

Grey Fox wrecks Matt and Elektra as well. So what? On top of that Ocelot escape with his life both times from Fox. The second time Fox went for kill shots and Ocelot dodge them all and return covering fire to get away. Then Ocelot beat Solid Snake himself who beat Fox.

He gave Solid Snake and Big Boss good fights sure, but he loses to both of them.

Ocelot beat Solid already. He beat prime Raiden easy too. As well prove superior to Solidus in a stand off.

He even lost to Liquid for possession of his own body.

That was not a fight though. That is...

Who has beaten Elektra recently? Only the combination of Captain America and Black Panther. And she was literally stabbing Captain America repeatedly when it was 1-on-1.

Both characters severally holding back on her too. They also beat her fine while holding back. She gets a stab in sure, Thats it. Looks like Cap took the stab to get a clear finishing shot in too.

Otherwise, she recently beat Kraven.

Thats pretty good. Few issues. One she prepped and chose the battlefield for Kraven. Not the case here. Two, is this a nerf Kraven? Since Kraven has Spider Man strength and Wolverine Healing last I check. So he must be nerf. Whats the context? Why did the person in last scan call her sloppy? Missing context I feel.

Stick.

Pfffft a d tier character.

Two Bullseyes at the same time.

Punisher and Hawkeye beaten Bullseye. Im not impress plus she know Bullseye super well. She dont know Venom or Ocelot.

Daredevil.

Who hasn't beaten him. I mean even Elektra disses Matts skill in your own scans.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11133/111332564/9335931-daredevilwomanwithoutfear3-2.jpg

"No matter his training, Mathew in his hear is a boxer, a brawler." - Elektra

And Iron Man.

She beat Iron Man?! Well hold the phones, no context there Im sure. She can just beat city buster high tiers. Like I said this clearly has missing context. She is not beating Iron Man one on one.

Just a couple months ago he was able to knock down a raging She-Hulk.

Knocking down someone is impressive now? I mean she only weighs like 600 pounds, 800 pounds.

I have more superhuman level feats like this too.

It's probably inconsistent though. Daredevil is not class 100. He is peak human.

Well yeah!!!

I have more reasonable feats, like throwing a grown man as a projectile. He was also able to lift a couch and juggernaut through 12 ninja at once, which is pretty crazy when you think about it.

So either way, if we use outlier feats, or their more reasonable feats, Daredevil looks a lot stronger than Venom Snake.

More reasonable feats they are same area. Outliers goes both ways. high ends they have better High end outliers, though Venom on foot beating Metal Gear Salanthropus or Pyscho Mantis/Volgin combo is insane too. Unlike MGS team though Matt has massive low ends as well. So the outliers work both ways with Matt and Elektra.

Conclusion

My team of Daredevil x Elektra has the better strength/speed, and the better record of H2H wins. Therefore there is a high likelihood of my team winning in a H2H fight.

Your team has the most impressive feats with their equipment. But due to Radar Sense and ninja training, Daredevil x Elektra are built to disarm those weapons and force the fight into H2H. The training that Daredevil and Elektra both received hardcounters guns. They are not just generic bullet timers, they have specific skills and techniques for making themselves impossible to hit.

I again must bring up training and actual skill knowledge. Venom has the ultimate fictional fighting style in MGS lore, a perfect mix Martial Art incorporating gun play as well called CQC. He also has insane marksmanship, stealth, and explosives training. He would also have LINE training and British SAS mix in. Ocelot has Spetsnaz training, KGB training, CIA training, CQC mastery, and superior marksmanship to most. Meanwhile Matt has Boxer/Brawler skills with Elektra "Ninja" training. I think looking at list of skill sets and training one side looks more impressive overall than the other tbh. Thats not including gear load out.

She just has to do this for five seconds:

Until she gets close enough to do this:

Considering Ocelot performance against Solid Snake and Raiden, she is not doing much of anything to him in close combat. Venom snake even less so.

Daredevil speaks for himself. But if you are still thinking that there is any chance at all for Daredevil to be shot here, let me conclude on one more little known fact about the man without fear.

Did you know that Daredevil himself is actually the best marksman in the Marvel Universe? It was shown recently when he outclassed Punisher at the one thing Punisher is supposed to be best at, and later, did the same thing to Bullseye.

So if he's better than Punisher and also better than Bullseye, then he is clearly the best marksman in the Marvel Universe. And it makes sense because he has Radar Sense.

Is he really the best marksmen? Or is it because Radar Sense allows him to be and not kill? DD batons are defended and block constantly by other Street levers, so its not mush a marksmen argument for DD, plus he has no guns.

This means that Daredevil could likely outduel Snake OR Ocelot. Even in a fair exchange. At the one thing they are supposed to be best at. Snake takes a shot, and Daredevil throws his billy club. Daredevil's shot will be the one that lands.

Yeah, no. DD batons will be easily intercepted and in turn disarming DD of his only weapon he tries to use them. These characters are legit marksmen, and have the super speed senses to do this. Meanwhile my team dont need to "throw away" their weapons, they just unload lead, explosives, tranqs, ect. D-Dog will also be another extra hassle and distraction for the DD/Elektra duo.

In the end Ocelot and Venom hold the better cards and more realistic and logical chance of winning. They also are consistent and not relying the wank of one writer or lowballing of another writer. I think they should for sure win. With Ocelot standing over the broken bodies giving his famous qoute.

Well my old friend another fun Cav for the books. Just like the old days.

Voting is Open!!!!

@oceanmaster21:@alekos:@jaylinfreeman:@kreigastartis:@rac95:@andromeda1001:@emperorthanos-: @geekryan:

No rush, no problems, this is open to votes whenever you all get to it.

that was quick

It doesn't take me long to whip this guy.

@sirfizzwhizz: @the_hajduk:

First off, Hadjuk's opener was quite underwhelming. There was no mention at all of Daredevil and Elektra's physicals and an over-emphasis on Daredevil's Radar Sense. Beyond scaling, there wasn't much depth when it came to skill. While his Radar Sense is very useful, Hadjuk was making it seem like some sort of unbeatable power that was the main deciding factor for why his team wins.

With his first post, SFW did a much better job at introducing his team and their capabilities, including gear, skill, and stats. I wasn't sold on his argument that guns would be the main factor for why his team wins, but overall, his opener was stronger.

Hadjuk addressed the guns/bullets argument decently well. The counters for gear were...odd. It was basically just "well Daredevil has Radar Sense so all your gear is useless". Hadjuk discussed skill a bit more here, which was good, but then he went on to mention Daredevil beating "Sabretooth, Black Panther, Gorgon, Spider-Man, the Rhino, MEPHISTO", without any evidence or context, which is where he lost me again. It came across as more wank than actual debating. He then touched upon stats, but presented a nanosecond-timing feat as Daredevil's highest end and a limousine-flipping feat as Daredevil's base strength...So again, I was lost.

The second post from SFW was also much better. While I wasn't totally convinced with the argument of DD never having fought Ocelot and thus not being able to predict him like he does with Bullseye, he made an excellent counter as to how Ocelot/Venom are bullet-timers, unlike Crossbones, and would have the necessary reaction speed to deal with deflected bullets. SFW backed this up with multiple feats, which solidified the speed argument for me. He then proceeded to show some evidence for enhanced senses and move reading within the MGS verse, proving that Daredevil isn't the only one here who can do that and equalizing things a little bit in that department. He also proved the gear/tech advantage that Ocelot/Venom have, with tons of feats. Regarding skill, SFW made a great point about how Taskmaster regularly gets beaten, and demonstrated his team's fights/wins against skilled and/or super-powered opponents. He also called out the outlier/high-end arguments that Hadjuk had previously made.

Hadjuk's third post was his strongest, but still a bit lacking IMO. There was still a lot of weird scaling (without evidence) and admitting that Taskmaster jobs when he should have countered it in a better way. For some reason, having Reed Richards and Spider-Man on speed dial was brought up, which was so random and completely unrelated to the debate. He did a good job demonstrating Elektra's recent victories, but that should have been brought up much earlier, like in his first or second post. He then claimed that Daredevil is Marvel's best marksman based off 1 instance of him outclassing Punisher, which seemed like a very random and last-ditch-effort attempt to hype up Daredevil. Again, a lot of wank-y arguments.

The final post from SFW was kinda messy, and I didn't agree with everything that was said, but it solidified DD's Radar Sense as not being as unbeatable as Hadjuk made it out to be. One thing I really did not like though was how SFW presented a lot of new feats/arguments in the final post, meaning Hadjuk has no chance to counter them. Therefore, I chose to completely ignore any newly-presented feats in this post.

Some of the comments/arguments that were brought up kinda just seemed like pissing contests, with the two trying to out-do the other, and often for such irrelevant things like which of their characters has better resources at their disposal, who would win in MGO2, etc. Just very odd, snarky remarks or sarcasm that seemed unnecessary and just made the debate more annoying to read. Not to mention Hadjuk's cockiness in his posts and between posts, which showed a reliance on ad hominems rather than letting his debating speak for itself. These didn't really contribute to who I am voting for, mind you, but it just seemed very unnecessary.

This is coming from someone who loves Elektra and Daredevil and knows them very well, but comparatively knows very, very little about Venom and Ocelot. Based on what SFW presented for Venom/Ocelot here, and what I know personally about Elektra and Daredevil, I would back Elektra and Daredevil in a fight. However, from a debating standpoint, SFW did a significantly better job and had much stronger arguments and counters. Therefore, my vote goes to SirFizzWhizz.

@geekryan: Thanks for the feedback.

My votes goes to @sirfizzwhiz

While Hajduk did a good job presenting Matt and Elek -SFW did overall a better showing of Snake&Ocelot showing their dominance in skill/gear/and Matt not knowing his oppositions-hindering him in this fight.

@geekryan: me and Nick being snarky is the best part of our debates. 😱 you know him and me have dozens of CAVs with each other and love messing around. 🤗 right @the_hajduk?

@sirfizzwhizz: It just seemed a lot more one-sided and intense on his end, that’s all. Like I said, it didn’t factor into my vote, just made the debate a bit more annoying to read haha

I think Fizz can handle it.

I'd give my vote to SFW.

I have to say,I was quite surprised how strong Hajduk started to directly try to use the Radar Sense as ultimate solution for everything,basically using it as an explanation why nothing works on him. The feats presented through scaling were also sometimes also negated by other examples brought up by SFW.

SFW on the other side had, as he also wrote in his second post, the advantage of more consistent scaling between multiple characters in his series, an advantage that he used pretty well IMO.

All in all I'd say that SFW did a better run-down in terms of equipment and physicals, without too much cross-scaling between different series.

@the_hajduk: @sirfizzwhizz:

So Nick had one of the best breakdowns I've seen for DD's radar sense, and I'm really glad you didn't waste time scan dumping a ton of other stuff about him in the physical department that we all already know. I do wish you spent a little more time with Elektra though. She was barely mentioned in this entire CaV.

I also think Nick does deserve some points for calling out the scaling chain going a little too far to Vamp, and while I don't completely disagree with Cadence's logic, I think Vamp doesn't really need to be brought up since he's never met Venom and his interactions with Ocelot are too limited. If Cadence's scaling stands, then Vamp is a pretty good indication that DD's radar sense isn't that big of a deal, but I think Nick was correct in saying the scaling chain is too far.

I think where Nick lost a lot of points for me was saying anything from Liquid Ocelot shouldn't count for Revolver Ocelot. Revolver was in the driver's seat the entire time that he had the memetic consciousness of Liquid in him. The entire series was leading up to this, with him perfecting how this would work in MGSV, and then already having it mastered by time MGS2 comes around and uses the data he got from MGS2 to show it's total capabilities in MGS4. There is even the moment in MGS4 where "Liquid" uses finger guns to take out the army surrounding him, which was a pretty blatant clue that Liquid is still steering the ship in his body, and has manipulated everyone into believing Liquid was in complete control. Either way, MGS2 shows that it isn't the memetic brainwashing that gives people combat skill, it's training and experience. Raiden wasn't skilled because he was brainwashed, he was skilled because he mastered VR training, and had the experience form being a child soldier, and this was part of the data collection Ocelot was looking for so he could control the events of MGS4. That was the completion of Raiden's arc in MGS2, and the narrative explaining this was pretty heavy handed. This is probably going too far for just a vote, but I think Nick ruling out Liquid Ocelot feats really ruins the driving theme of the series, and that part of his argument doesn't make sense because of it. Because of this, it almost seems like the cigar speed feat was implied to be too fast for DD or Elektra to deal with, because if Nick would have just debated it at face value instead of trying to say it doesn't apply, he could have actually shown how DD and Elektra can handle that speed.

Besides that, I thought your counters in your second post were all pretty great.

I do think Fizz did a great job responding to those counters though, in typical Cadence fashion of poking holes in an argument with only a few words needed. I also agree with where Fizz is coming from with Marvel inconsistencies, but I don't think Nick was really taking advantage of those inconsistencies much, and was being pretty fair and consistent with feats he was using, and not hiding the fact that DD does also lose to some of the characters he beats.

Both of you made this a quick read without really losing much context, although I think Nick should have made this a slightly longer read and talk more about Elektra.

I'm voting for Cadence. This might be biased because of how much I love MGS lore, but the Liquid Ocelot thing was the biggest negative in this entire debate, so Cadence ends up ahead because of that. If that wasn't part of the debate, I'd have to consider this more.

@tparks: Thank you for the analysis.

It is stated several times that Liquid Ocelot has the power of Revolver Ocelot + Liquid Snake combined. It is not Ocelot by himself anymore.

@the_hajduk: I wouldn't count that. You were supposed to believe that Liquid was in control until the end of MGS4. Anything confirming a false truth is just doing that.

It's like if you used the trailer for Sixth Sense to prove that Bruce Willis isn't dead in the movie. It's still a false truth even though you have evidence for it.

But Ocelot really did implant Liquid's knowledge and memories into himself. It was the same hypnotherapy process through which Medic became Big Boss. Knowledge and training are an amp.

@the_hajduk: Knowledge and personality was transferred, but Ocelot was still driving the ship. It's why he still used finger guns in MGS4, something Ocelot does, not Liquid. And it was done in pretty dramatic fashion, with him destroying an army with finger guns.

It's also never implied that physical skills are downloaded like in the Matrix. Venom was already the best soldier when he had memetic brain washing. That's not just a coincidence. It's not like they could just take some rando off the street and turn them into Big Boss. MGSV showed that all the soldiers were getting the same kind of training as Big Boss, and Ocelot was the one training them, which makes sense with the story, since he was working on perfecting soldiers through this process. You can even play as the random soldiers, and all of them are able to do the things Big Boss does.

For Ocelot's story, MGSV was more of a prequel to MGS2 then it was MG1, MG2, or MGS1. Ocelot took what he did with Venom, and took it even further with Raiden. Ocelot had begun the process of the memetic transfer of Liquid into himself, and Raiden was being brainwashed. But all of Ocelot's skills were his own, and all of Raiden's skills were his own. Raiden's skills and how he performs his mission was the driving force for the entire plot, and it's revealed at the end that it was because of his own skills he obtained as a child soldier and VR training, and not through being brainwashed.

Snake gives Raiden shit the whole game for being a VR soldier and not having experience, and that being the only thing holding him back. When it turns out Raiden actually has a ton of experience from being a child soldier, Snake looks at him as an equal, and sees what Raiden is capable of, not because he was brainwashed, but because he earned everything on his own. Raiden even uses his own skill that Solid never had with a sword when he finishes his Hero's Journey.

Ocelot talks about how all Solid, Liquid, and Solidus are nothing special, and it only requires his brainwashing, being put into experiences like Snake had to, and VR training from Snake's old missions to make any soldier able to do the same things Big Boss could do, which retroactively turns out he had direct knowledge of because of the events of MGSV. And he turns out to be correct when Raiden succeeds in every challenge on the Big Shell that were made to mimic the same challenges Snake had at Shadow Moses, and when he proved to be Solidus' Superior, but not with Snake's skills, but with his own, and Solidus was a perfect clone of Big Boss. The whole story of MGS2 was Ocelot getting the data he needed to perfect this process, and part of that process was giving Raiden the skills of Snake, but it wasn't through brainwashing, it was through him developing the skills through training and then being put into a mission designed to test him in similar challenges Shadow Moses did to Snake.

Ocelot has this mastered by time MGS4 comes around, and uses it on himself, but he would have had to have the skills himself to do the things he did. Ya, he had Liquids memories and personality, but it was still Ocelot's skills that he practiced himself, and it was also secretly still Ocelot in control, operating through Liquid's persona.

@jaylinfreeman: Are you gonna vote?

That was a perfect analogy actually.

My vote goes to The_Hadjuk

@tparks: @sirfizzwhizz: So are we saying that absorbing all the skills and knowledge of another person does not increase Ocelot’s skill at all? How would that even make sense? Unless you’re saying that he did not absorb Liquid’s skills? Because it’s specifically stated that he did.

Like I was saying earlier, it’s not like The Matrix, where physical abilities are downloaded into their brain.

Think if you had the memories and personality of Michael Jordan brainwashed into you. Even if you knew what you were supposed to do on a basketball court, you’re not going to be as good as Jordan because you never trained your muscle memory and instincts to actually use these skills. Even if you were as physically built as Jordan, you’d be slow in everything you do, since it’s still your muscles and your brain reacting to the environment and then moving. But with Ocelot, he moved faster then Liquid Snake ever has in a fight. I think it’s safe to say Ocelot is likely superior to Liquid in close combat, and the fact he used CQC, which Liquid never even used on screen, but Ocelot has, is even more evidence that Ocelot is using his skills. And then him right after that scene using Finger Guns, really drives home who was still secretly in control, even if he had Liquid’s persona.

And with MGSV, we know that Ocelot already had these skills. Nothing he does in MGS4 is anything he’s never done before. Just like with Raiden, brainwashing couldn’t turn Raiden into Snake. If that was the case, they wouldn’t have needed Raiden, who already had tons of combat experience and VR training, and this was the whole theme of the game, with Raiden stepping into his own identity not through brainwashing or VR, but his own skill and experiences. They could have just taken any random soldier, or even just a random person with zero experience in general and made them the next Snake if it didn’t matter who was brainwashed. Same with Venom, who already had the same skills as Big Boss. It would have been a lot easier to do that with someone who wasn’t so weak they could barely stand, but Ocelot used Venom because he was the best Soldier already, and could already do the things Big Boss can do.