TOP 10 STRONGEST WARHAMMER FANTASY CHARACTERS

I like to discuss warhammer matchups quite alot, and while the Verse is, like many others, often very inconsistent, I do believe that certain characters are undoubtedly superior to others, and so I wanted to make a list of who I believe the strongest characters are. Note that this is my personal list and has my thoughts on matters, so it is not something that should determine the thoughts on others, nor is it likely to be 100% objectively true or supported by GW (lets be real, making anything consistent is anathema for GW), although I do try to make it as lore accurate as possible. Hope you enjoy whether you agree with the list or not, and feel free to give your own thoughts in the comments, or even make blogs such as this one yourself :)

Rules

Just because certain things have to be established before a list such as this:

Regarding gods

I will exclude gods and entities, mainly because it would be extremely difficult to know which gods are how strong. However if someone wants me to make a list of the top 10 greatest gods/entities, just tell me in the comments and I will try my best :). The type of gods I refer to are from the respective pantheons (elves, dwarfs, nehekharans, imperial, old ones, chaos gods) and god-like beings like Draugnir, prime Bel’akor and Krakanrok the Black. However I will specifically include gods that have a very strong basis and placement in the realms of mortals such as Sigmar, Nagash, etc.

Regarding Slann

Slann are undoubtedly the strongest species in Warhammer, and have the strongest characters in the likes of Kroak. However since it would be dull to have a list where a majority of characters are slann, I will exclude them here. For the Slann/Lizardmen fanboys I will make a short list showing what it would be like if I did include them:

1. Lord Kroak
2. 1st gen slann
3. 1st gen slann
4. 1st gen slann
5. 1st gen slann
6. 1st gen slann
7. 1st gen slann
8. 1st gen slann
9. 1st gen slann
10. 1st gen slann

Honourable mentions:

1. 1st gen Slann
2. 1st gen Slann
3. 1st gen Slann
4. Mazda- jk another 1st gen slann

Regarding End Times

While unpopular for a very good reason, this list will include End Times lore. However since I myself am not the biggest fan of using it, if anyone wants me to make a list excluding ET, just tell me in the comments and I will do my best (and would quite enjoy doing so!) :)

Without further hesitation, let us move onto the list

10: Sigmar/Archaon

While some might dislike the notion of the signature chaos big bad and the signature empire character being this low, I frankly can’t justify them being higher, as I will explain further in. Why I believe they beat the characters not on this list however should be obvious. Archaon is the greatest mortal champion of chaos, can beat the high-tiers of just about any faction (such as Ungrim Ironfist and Grimgor Ironhide), has beaten the Lord of Shadows Be’lakor, and is the greatest and final everchosen.

Sigmar also should be clear. Having beaten one of the greatest orc warbosses of all time, beaten the first everchosen (and amped Magnus the Pious to beat the third), beaten a weakened Nagash and Drachenfels, and the list goes on. The reason I had these two share the top spot is because in their confrontations they repeatedly have seemed comparable, with Archaon usually holding the edge only barely if at all, and in all but one engagement because Sigmar was not reuinited with Ghal Maraz.

9: Aenarion

I KNOW I will get heat for this, as Aenarion is usually held as a top 3-er or top 5-er minimum, but frankly he is less impessive than he should be. While a great warrior and the avatar of two gods, his greatest feat (fighting 4 greater daemons) is not all what it is said to be. He was wounded by Kairos in melee, had some difficulty with N’kari, and even lost to Throttle Gurglespew, only being saved by Indraugnir. That is not to say he is not impressive, since him beating those two greater daemons in the first place is an incredible feat, and he would proceed to kill a bloodthirster in one hit. Something basically impossible for almost anyone not on this list.

8: Caledor Dragontamer

One could argue that Aenarion is superior to Caledor, being the greatest champion of the elves and avatar of two gods, and I wouldn’t necessarily disagree. In terms of raw power Aenarion might be superior. But Aenarion is limited to pure melee through which he can use his power, which is why the likes of Gurglespew so easily could beat him. Meanwhile Caledor is comparable in power, but has a vastly more varied, complex and advanced way through which to use it. Caledor is perhaps the greatest non-slann mage in all of Warhammer, as is shown in the creation of the Great Vortex, in the casual overpowering of Morathi and Malekith, and much more. The fact that even Teclis lives in his shadow is all you need to know.

7: Coeddil

Coeddil might be a strange one, as he’s less known than most characters here, but frankly one can’t really dispute his power. And said power is pretty ridiculous, as I’m sure any Total War player would agree ;). Treemen in general are shown to be equally matched with bloodthirsters, some capable of beating them and some losing in great battles. One even held its own against Ka’bandha. Not to mention that Treemen held back the great catastrophe just as well as anyone else, if not better. And Coeddil is a treeman elder, one of the strongest of their kind. Some might argue that Ariel should be above Coeddil, as she had imprisoned him. However the power of the treemen is shared among each other, and since then Adanhu died, leaving Coeddil as one of two treemen elders, and massively empowered. Furthermore, Coeddil is both a caster and a melee monster, which allows him to be much more potent that a pure caster like Ariel (and not a super-combat oriented one).

6: Kroq-Gar

This will be controversial but frankly I find Kroq-Gar far more impressive than the high elves, and believe that realistically he should be far stronger than even Aenarion. Whereas the High Elves under Aenarion and Caledor only barely held back the daemon invasions, even after Aenarion drew Widowmaker, Kroq-Gar lead an army against the bulk of the daemon invasion (the invasion of Lustria was much greater than the one the HE faced), despite the chaos forces spawning within the city he was in and killed his slann casters before he even got to enter combat. And he then fought for centuries without pause, even after his army died, only to afterwards get two Old Ones weapons. Even without his weapons Kroq-Gar should be comparable to Aenarion, with them he should be noticeably above.

5: Durthu

With Coedill on the list, Durthu was inevitable. Durthu is an underrated high-tier, being the greatest treeman alive, a species that can clash with and even beat Greater Daemons, even Bloodthirsters. Whereas Tyrion carrying Widowmaker was rightfully a melee beast that even beat Orion, Durthu only suffered a minor wound from being struck by Widowmaker, and proceeded to ragdoll Tyrion with incredible ease. And that was before Durthu with the help of Allarielle killed Coedill, giving Durthu the full power of all treemen elders. Coedill who before that was Durthu’s equal, making the latter almost twice as strong as the being on spot 7 in this list. For Durthu killing greater daemons is not just possible, he outright oneshots them. Of course, this is not mentioning the fact that during ET dozens of treeman ancients died as well, from whom Durthu also would gain power.

4: The White Dwarf

A list is not truly a warhammer list unless it features the White Dwarf. Repeatedly being stated the greatest dwarf hero of all times, directly argued and indirectly implied to be much superior to Gotrek and Josef Bugman, one of the oldest characters in the setting and with the most ridiculous confirmed killstreaks in Warhammer Fantasy. Also helps that he’s the son of literal gods, carries four of the greatest dwarf treasures in the world, and the Green Knight but on steroids and with a longer beard. His greatest feat however, and which honestly might put him in the top 1, is that he has a better beard than Grimnir and Grungni. That aside, even this placement might actually be too low, but he is hard to compare to the characters above as he has less dueling feats with big names.

Intermission: The Black Gobbo

The White Dwarf has faced many powerful enemies and has many rivals, but his greatest enemy is none other than the Black Goblin. Whereas the White Dwarf is the spirit of the dwarfs, the black goblin is the spirit of their most hated enemies; the greenskins. Technically it could be argued that as the chief rival and spiritual nemesis of the White Dwarf, he should be ranked alongside him. However since the Black Gobbo does prefer tricks over direct combat, and lacks feats of his own, I have decided not to rank him.

3: Ka'bandha

Ka’bandha is a new arrival in Fantasy, only appearing as an antagonist in the End Times. But its easy to see how he was a rival of Sanguinius. The combined forces of Incarnates Tyrion, Malekith, and Alarielle could only temporarily keep him down. Just hurting him required Incarnate Caradryan to sacrifice his full potency until he died, and even then Tyrion was again beaten by him. The only reason he was beaten was because he was unable to defeat Nagash, and was ultimately killed by Sigmar Returned. While Archaon technically was the big bad of End Times, it was only Ka’bandha who could beat multiple incarnates at once.

2: Nagash

Noone really needs an explanation here. Nagash was one of the most powerful non-slann casters even before the End Times, only rivaled by the likes of Teclis, and in the End Times he got a massive boost, to the point where they made up a new rank of wizards (level 5) exclusive to himself just to properly represent his power. This power is shown most clearly when he casually laughed off Ka’bandha hitting him repeatedly, matched him in physical strength and in the end was the only Incarnate who could directly push back the chaos rift threatening to destroy the world, even with Teclis being incarnate of two winds at the time. Some might question why he is above Ka’bandha when they matched each other in melee, but thats easily answered, Nagash is a mage. So while capable of matching the number 3 in melee, Nagash has far more variety in that his true power lies in sorcery and knowledge, which makes Nagash a far stronger overall combatan. Also worth mentioning that in a full fight between the two, Nagash likely would have won, as Ka’bandha’s blows couldn’t even harm Nagash. And ultimately one has to remember that this was post-prime Nagash, he was massively weakened when his Black Pyramid, the greatest source of his power, was destroyed.

1: Pre-Exile Skarbrand

Although Skarbrand has since lost his position and become a crazed exile, he was once the unquestionably strongest bloodthirster of Khorne, greater even than Ka’bandha, and so it is impossible to put him below even Nagash. While even he could not, for fairly obvious reasons, hurt Khorne, the fact that he could even chink Khorne’s armour puts him above just about any character in Warhammer.

Conclusion

So thats my top 10, really do hope all of you enjoyed it, and since there are many characters others may argue made the list, here are my honourable mentions, in which you may see some of them:

Honourable mentions

• Settra
• Drachenfels
• The Imperishable
• Teclis
• Lord of the Earth
• Morathi
• Lord of the Sky
• Kugath Plaguefather
• Ruler of the Four Horizons
• Gilles Le Breton
• Mighty Lion of the Infinite Desert
• Gotrek Gurnisson
• Great Hawk of the Heavens
• Tyrion
• Radiant Sun
• Malekith
• King of the Shifting Sands
• Kairos Fateweaver
• Eternal Sovereign
• And many more
• I really wanted to add Settra :(

Characters who could have made the list (and aren’t banned), but lack feats/are too inconsistent

• Throttle Gurglespew
• Adanhu
• Arbaal the Undefeated
• Josef Bugman
• And many more

@mordhauextreme1@shroudofsorrow@cergic@masterofmatches@kriegastartes

Woah! This was very well done

I think that eventually you should try to make top 10 or less strongest Gods and maybe try to look more at it in general (see old and new and look at who was more impressive) if possible

@brogokudestroys: Thank you! And yeah I plan/hope to get to work on the most powerful gods, although that will probably be a mess to sort out besides the obvious top 4 lmfao

Top 4 are a lot easier to sniff out, I think top 1 is either Tzeench or Gork and Mork (OG Tzeench might be superior)

@cheth: Its a good list some of the characters were a surprise, but overall the placement I'd change up a bit imo. I'm assuming as u stated in ur opening that most of these characters if not all are at their best yes? Then some of them would need to be swapped

As for the Lizardmen fans, come on... we know ure a lizardmen fan to and Slann are 1st place xd

All are at their best yeah, so its Widowmaker Aenarion, unwounded Ka'bandha, pre-exile Skarbrand, black pyramid god nagash. Which ones would you personally swap?

Guilty as charged, and yeah thats why I made the slann only list lol

@cheth: Thanks mate

Thanks for what lol

@cheth: for the info on Fantasy

Ah, My pleasure!

@cheth:

A somewhat unconventional but not necessarily flawed list. This requires me to think on several rock-paper-scissor beats what scenarios i have not done yet :)

Yeah a number of rankings here are probs not what one would expect/with characters most wouldn't rank, but thats kind of why I like it when people give their thoughts on theirs since new ideas on matchups might arrive ;)

@cheth: I’ll address soon

I've been meaning to get into fantasy warhammer, but 40k keeps sucking me back in. Great post and will give it a thorough read later

looking forward to it

I feel the same way but opposite: want to get into 40k, but more invested in fantasy. Thank you and hope you enjoy

@cheth: Well done! I think this is personally a good list. I'm surprised you didn't swap Kroq-gar for Miao Ying :(

Thank you!

Meow Ying, Zhao Ming, Yuri, and other TW characters are currently excluded from the list since I'm yet unsure where to hold them compared to old WH characters lol

@cheth: That makes sense :)

@cheth: Alright this is my list imo

10: Sigmar/Archaon

9: Coeddil

8: The White Dwarf/Intermission: The Black Gobbo ( I dont see them doing the same as what Durthu has done and Coeddil would be higher than these two if he had more feats with him aside from the little snipits we got I'm impressed u added Coeddil though always liked him and Drycha )

7: Durthu

6: Aenarion ( honestly him and Durthu could be either way because Durthu on his death bed managed to impale a Greater Daemon of Chaos with one throw of his sword all while giving life to the Everqueen so.... eh )

5: Caledor Dragontamer ( Higher because the dude literally blasted a large chunk of his homeland without too much effort all while holding the vortex and taking bets with Khaine to see who wins the elven civil war dude is insane )

4: Ka'bandha

3: Nagash

2: Pre-Exile Skarbrand

1: Kroq-Gar

@mordhauextreme1: So we do have the same characters, just ranked alot differently

@cheth: Naw You rated Kroq-gar at 6, I rated him at 1. We are not the same. Xd

Naw I was busting ur balls in that aspect, but some of the characters needed to be rearranged to a certain extent imo. However I still think Abhorash might beon this list as well not sure due to the fact what limited feats he has, are still pretty good, just not sure where if so

Honestly can't see the White dwarf or durthu being below Aenarion

Also i feel like abhorash would be lucky to be top 30 personally lol

@cheth: Aenarion with the SoK would defeat either, he already has better feats in the strength department and his skill should be equal, so with stats and equal skill he should come out on top imo, without the SoK hes just a glorified Tyrion imo ( still skilled and tbh BAMF, but hes not defeating either )

Not sure why top 30 tbh, guy has some great feats to suggest he should be more than superior to most people if not imo superior to Archaon xd

The best strength feat I can think of from Aenarion is oneshotting a bloodthirster. That is impressive no doubt, but Snorri (who has worse gear than White Dwarf) already almost oneshotted a great unclean one himself, and Durthu two-shotted one of the greatest bloodthirsters of all time (whereas dreadaxe had... nothing). And aenarion can't even do it consistently, since before that he had extended fights with Kairos (in melee) and N'kari. Durthu in particular has already tanked the SoK (and it just made a minor cut), and has far better strength feats in physically overpowering bloodthirsters.

Abhorash is certainly strong (scaling above Walach Harkon and other blood knights, and killing a dragon), but like his only claim to strength is being hyped as the greatest swordsman of the vampires (note, not the greatest of vampires, thats Vlad), a claim many other characters can match/have similar ones (Arbaal, Settra, Tyrion, Imrik, Eltharion, Gor-rok, Chakax, even Sigvald). In terms of feats Abhorash is one of the most featless around, and while we all know he is strong, nothing he has would make me put him even in the top 20 tbh

@cheth: One shotting a Bloodthirster is one another is grabbing a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth and throwing it hard enough to pancake it completely, which the White Dwarf from what Ik isnt pulling that off.

As for gear like I said standard gear Aenarion is below the White Dwarf, SoK as you even mentioned with "worst" gear is not defeating Aenarion imo who has superior stats still as I mentioned one shotted a dragon ogre via just grab and throw

Durthu that's fair

Abhorash is considered the strongest of the vampires including Vlad. Josh IIRC made that clear along with the fact Vlad said during the ETs IIRC wherever Abhorash stands will be the last place the daemons will take ( granted vlad is ofc wanking him, but again vlad is giving us an idea how high Abhorash is compared to him )

for feats

However I still think Abhorash might beon this list as well not sure due to the fact what limited feats he has, are still pretty good, just not sure where if so

As I mentioned hes basically featless as well with very little feats to amount to much

@mordhauextreme1:

One shotting a Bloodthirster is one another is grabbing a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth and throwing it hard enough to pancake it completely, which the White Dwarf from what Ik isnt pulling that off.

I mean, first off Bloodthirsters > Shaggoths. And the White Dwarf defeating the primordial troll and all his children hundreds of times is >>> either of the feats named for Aenarion. Also note that if oneshotting a Shaggoth is a feat that makes someone place above Durthu and the White Dwarf, Settra should be ranked besides Aenarion, as he oneshotted a giant, a shaggoth, and then went on to solo an army of both + trolls and other beasts.

As for gear like I said standard gear Aenarion is below the White Dwarf, SoK as you even mentioned with "worst" gear is not defeating Aenarion imo who has superior stats still as I mentioned one shotted a dragon ogre via just grab and throw

I would argue that Axes of grimnir are comparable to SoK.

Abhorash is considered the strongest of the vampires including Vlad.

In ET and in regular WH lore Vlad is reapeatedly named the greatest of all vampires.

Josh IIRC made that clear

GW said that no Josh comments are canon. Also note that in the interview he told this, this was the complete list he made:

God Sigmar > Ka'bandha > Abhorash > Gotrek = Human Sigmar = Abhorash = Tyrion > Archaon > Grimgor > Vlad

The fact that Abhorash is placed in two different spots is not a mistake on my part btw, he just contradicts himself repeatedly. He also thinks that Abhorash would be capable of wounding Nagash (ET nagash that is) and that Gork would have to personally manifest for Grimgor to have a chance to beat Abhorash.

In other words, Reynolds borders on nonsensical when it comes to his VS stances, and he's the biggest hyper of Abhorash. But within his official GW released works such as rise of Nagash, Vlad is confirmed to be the greatest of all vampires, which indicates that Reynolds is not allowed to write those stances into actual GW content.

Vlad said during the ETs IIRC wherever Abhorash stands will be the last place the daemons will take ( granted vlad is ofc wanking him, but again vlad is giving us an idea how high Abhorash is compared to him )

Neferata and Khalida are confirmed the last place that gets destroyed so technicaly they scale above him ;)

Also note its not just Abhorash, its also Gilles and the main force of bretonnia, as well as possibly the blood dragons

@cheth: I think there's some confusion up here, so I'll hopefully clear some of it so we aren't confused

I mean, first off Bloodthirsters > Shaggoths.

I never once claimed Shaggoths are superior or equal to Bloodthirsters. I said Elf King Lord Emperor mofo with SoK pancaked one, I dont think there's been any indication that the White Dwarf is packing that kind of strength. Can he one shot one? Sure so can SoK Aenarion, but that wasn't the point. If you have feats suggesting the white dwarf can indeed pancake one, by all means post away I have no issue as my knowledge on him isn't exactly the best, but I do know most of his feats

And the White Dwarf defeating the primordial troll and all his children hundreds of times is >>> either of the feats named for Aenarion.

Are we talking Aenarion with SoK or without it? Because Aenarion taking on one of the most famous Daemons of Slaanesh along with 3 other Greater Daemons would prolly put him above the primordial trolls

Also note that if oneshotting a Shaggoth is a feat that makes someone place above Durthu and the White Dwarf, Settra should be ranked besides Aenarion, as he oneshotted a giant, a shaggoth, and then went on to solo an army of both + trolls and other beasts.

I didn't say oneshotting, don't get it twisted. I said pancaked as in he lifted it through it so hard at a wall and flattened it. I'd like to see a feat show casing the White Dwarf doing that. Remember what I said, I said Aenarion is equal in skill with Durthu and the white dwarf but has a "stat" advantage ( mostly speed and strength since elves tend to be quite faster than dwarfs naturally and the SoK is giving him a strength edge as well ) Durthu is prolly better now that u mentioned him killing two famous bloodthirsters so I forgot about that.

So I want to make it clear. One shotting is something they can ALL do. Lifting and grabbing one and then throwing it against a wall and pancaking it because it was thrown so hard, is something else that I dont see the White Dwarf doing unless u can post feats otherwise

I would argue that Axes of grimnir are comparable to SoK.

I'd argue someone duel wielding both is above SoK. White Dwarf doesn't hold either though IIRC, one is Thorgrim and the other is Gotrek I dont recall the White dwarf having either. Even Teclis upon looking at Gotrek in their novel suggested that he'd have to pull out his big guns to even stand against Gotrek in a fight and even then wasn't sure he'd win as well. The Axes of Grimnir are pretty strong and ofc paired together should spank just about anything and along with depending on the "user" ofc

In ET and in regular WH lore Vlad is reapeatedly named the greatest of all vampires.

Yet Vlad states

"No, Not like that sad, mad warrior or like me. Abhorash is the best of us," Vlad said softly. "He owed a debt to your king, and swore an oath, and while he fights, Bretonnia lives. In some small corner of this shattered land, the heart of all that was Bretonnia survives."

-Warhammer Fantasy: Lord of the End Times

and Neferata also states

If so, she would be forced to kill them and perhaps him. The former was certain, the latter… not so much. Of all the first immortals, Abhorash was perhaps the only one who could match her. It was a shame that he was such a hidebound fool.

-Warhammer Fantasy: Neferata

Granted both have fairly big egos, ( manny boi's is bigger ) but again Abhorash is no joke

Furthermore, as I mentioned we don't have much on him, but we do know once more Josh Reynolds did state that Abhorash would indeed, beat the following

Grimgor, Archaon, Skulltaker, Vlad or Gotrek ( this is ofc not a Gotrek novel, if it was then it'd be 40 pages long and Gotrek would barely come out on top )

Furthermore he states that Abhorash is not equal to Ka’Bandha and he is tied on pre God Sigmar

So I'd say Abhorash is above Vlad, especially when Vlad is the one stating he was the best out of them all regardless of what was stated otherwise. We have a character admitting he couldn't best him. If we didn't have then, then I'd be more inclined due to the fact that as you mentioned there has been several sources stating vlad to be top dog, but ofc there are others I think who could challenge him and possibly win, but overall yes Vlad could be considered top dog after Abhorash ofc

In case you were curious, heres the segment, but ofc here's the quite that a lot of questions were asked to as well

First, bear in mind, that Abhorash is the greatest warrior the world has ever seen. He's the figurative embodiment of war itself. He's a guy who has done nothing but fight for over a thousand years. No rest, no sleep, no taking a holiday. Just war. He's as close to a two-legged engine of destruction as the Old World gets.

Too, a fight scene depends on context just as much as any other narrative device. There's no such thing as a fight in a vacuum, unless you're writing science-fiction. All of these fights depend on location, whether the combatants have had to fight through armies of mooks, the stakes, etc. F'r instance, if it's a G&F novel the fight happens in, Gotrek wins.

Vlad would know better than to fight him. And if he did, he'd wake up later, after his ring has resurrected him and wonder why he'd done it.

Abhorash would beat Grimgor handily, once he figured out how to put him down for keeps. Grimgor, Incarnate of Beasts would be tougher, but Archaon did it, and Abhorash is better than Archaon so...yeah. There is no way, short of Gork himself showing up, that Grimgor wins.

Gotrek would be more of the same...he's not unbeatable, he's just really hard to keep down. Abhorash would win that one, but he'd know he'd been in a fight. The only way I can see the fight going to Gotrek involves him having both of Grimnir's axes and a power-up...then Gotrek wins. Or it's in a G&F book, as I said, then Gotrek wins after a forty-page fight scene.

Tyrion could hold his own. It'd be a stalemate, until one or the other lost their temper and then it's anybody's guess, with an edge to Abhorash, due to the whole vampire thing.

Sigmar...is tricky. Is it Sigmar Ascended, or just Emperor Sigmar? If it's the former, Abhorash loses, eventually. If its the latter, Abhorash...might still lose. We don't know how his duel with Gilles turned out, after all, way back when. If Gilles could have beaten him, then Sigmar might have been able to do so as well. At best, though, I think it's a grueling stalemate.

Ka' Bhanda and Skulltaker pose similar quandaries...Abhorash is the figurative embodiment of war, but they're literally shards of the god of war and slaughter. In a clench, I'd say Abhorash trucks Skulltaker. He'd also splat a regular bloodthirster, if it came to that. But Ka'Bhanda is something else. It took ALL of the Incarnates to wear him down. That one would be a squeaker I think. It could go either way, with an edge to Ka'Bhanda.

Magic users, well, if they ganged up on him, yeah. One on one, Nagash wins. He knows how to unmake vampires, though I'm betting Abhorash would leave a few scars. Teclis and Malekith, much like Tyrion depends on who keeps their head. Abhorash isn't as cunning as Malekith or as smart as Teclis, but then, he doesn't need to be. If he gets close, they lose. If they can keep him guessing, and at a distance, then they win.

Granted keep in mind, you can take what he says with a grain of salt or not. I personally kind of understand where he gauges Abhorash simply because again... there's nothing to suggest otherwise based on what we've seen Abhorash has done and the tales behind the legend. Granted until we get more feats ( hopefully soon since WHF has been brought back to life ) There's not much we can say, which brings me to what I said before which was he's basically featless to a certain extent of extremely vague

GW said that no Josh comments are canon. Also note that in the interview he told this, this was the complete list he made:

God Sigmar > Ka'bandha > Abhorash > Gotrek = Human Sigmar = Abhorash = Tyrion > Archaon > Grimgor > Vlad

I quoted his list, but if we accept he's not canon, the statement still stands in the End Times Vlad already admits Abhorash is the best of them and Neferata in her novel states shes his equal if not slightly better but ofc we know 1 that was older Abhorash and 2 her ego is pretty big as well

The fact that Abhorash is placed in two different spots is not a mistake on my part btw, he just contradicts himself repeatedly. He also thinks that Abhorash would be capable of wounding Nagash (ET nagash that is) and that Gork would have to personally manifest for Grimgor to have a chance to beat Abhorash.

In other words, Reynolds borders on nonsensical when it comes to his VS stances, and he's the biggest hyper of Abhorash. But within his official GW released works such as rise of Nagash, Vlad is confirmed to be the greatest of all vampires, which indicates that Reynolds is not allowed to write those stances into actual GW content.

True, but the two quotes ignore this regardless. Point is he's above Vlad and this comes from ETs which out does Rise of Nagash

Neferata and Khalida are confirmed the last place that gets destroyed so technicaly they scale above him ;)

Neferata already admitted their equals so no they don't :)

Also note its not just Abhorash, its also Gilles and the main force of bretonnia, as well as possibly the blood dragons

Ofc, Vlad is the one telling that bret knight to go to the keep to meet with both Gilles, the Red Duke ( whos suppose to guide them up there ) and Abhorash :)

@mordhauextreme1:

I never once claimed Shaggoths are superior or equal to Bloodthirsters. I said Elf King Lord Emperor mofo with SoK pancaked one, I dont think there's been any indication that the White Dwarf is packing that kind of strength. Can he one shot one? Sure so can SoK Aenarion, but that wasn't the point. If you have feats suggesting the white dwarf can indeed pancake one, by all means post away I have no issue as my knowledge on him isn't exactly the best, but I do know most of his feats

Why is throwing a shaggoth and killing it with that a strength feat above killing stronger creatures by other means?

Are we talking Aenarion with SoK or without it? Because Aenarion taking on one of the most famous Daemons of Slaanesh along with 3 other Greater Daemons would prolly put him above the primordial trolls

I would actually disagree, for a number of reasons:

1. The "father of" monsters are, in general, on the tier of gods themselves. Think of Kalgalanos the Black, Draugnir, The Celestial Dragon Emperor, Krakanrok the Black, etc. The father monsters are exclusively god-tier, and would be odd for trolls to be the one exception.

2. If the White dwarf simply slayed it once I might agree, but its regen was so overpowered it genuinely fully regenerated a hundred times before it died.

3. The ridicolous amount of other trolls in the fight. the white dwarf killed it a hundred time, and each time it was said to spawn a dozen trolls from its blood. Which means that the White Dwarf fought the father of troll alongside hundreds of other trolls. While trolls of course aren't as strong as greater daemons, they're still incredibly dangerous (there is a reason troll slayers are feared) and capable of breaking fortress walls if they're old enough.

So I want to make it clear. One shotting is something they can ALL do. Lifting and grabbing one and then throwing it against a wall and pancaking it because it was thrown so hard, is something else that I dont see the White Dwarf doing unless u can post feats otherwise

But why is that a better feat? Just because they don't do it doesn't mean they're not capable, and based on the feat that they can instantly kill stronger creatures, I would argue they're fully capable.

White Dwarf doesn't hold either though IIRC, one is Thorgrim and the other is Gotrek I dont recall the White dwarf having either.

White Dwarf does hold it (stated in Armybooks and WD repeatedly), and there is actually a simple explaination for why Thorgrim and Gotrek have one each; the WD has a third. Not as in there's literarily three axes of grimnir, but what you have to remember is that the white dwarf is not an actual dwarf, he's a spirit, more akin to the green knight. The White Dwarf is the spirit and strength of the dwarfs, and the greatest gifts of the dwarfs are his to wield since he wields the power of the dwarfs themselves. His axe of grimnir is a spiritual axe, but just as, if not stronger, than those wielded by gotrek and thorgrim.

Yet Vlad states

Context is important here:

"A red knight..." Jerrod murmured. He gazed at Vlad. "He is one of your kind. Like... the Duke. Like you."

"No, Not like that sad, mad warrior or like me. Abhorash is the best of us," Vlad said softly. "He owed a debt to your king, and swore an oath, and while he fights, Bretonnia lives. In some small corner of this shattered land, the heart of all that was Bretonnia survives."

The comparison is not about combat, its about the nature of their being. Jerrod states he is like the duke and vlad, a vampire. But Vlad is arguing that Abhorash is different, that he is the best not as a fighter or the strongest, but as a person. He is better than other vampires.

and Neferata also states

This one is more fair, as the context is combative. However two things:

1. This at best puts Abhorash = Neferata, someone who is also not on either of our lists and is unlikely to reach the top tiers

2. This is set before the vampire wars. Last thing anyone heard of Vlad was that he died in the wars against Alcadizzar. Since then Vlad had gotten his hands on all of the books of Nagash, and would eventually take over Sylvania and become the vampire he is today.

On Vlad's side however we have Armybooks, WDs, and Nagash himself considering Vlad the greatest and most powerful of the vampires. Sure Abhorash beats him in a pure duel of swordsmanship, but Vlad is not only one of the most skilled vampires, he's also the smartest and one of the most powerful, which puts him as the greatest overall, and more than capable of beating Abhorash.

Furthermore, as I mentioned we don't have much on him, but we do know once more Josh Reynolds did state that Abhorash would indeed, beat the following

Again those are the comments that Reynolds was forced to delete by GW since he was saying stuff they disagreed with/didn't want him to say. And as shown previously, his statements don't even make sense:

He says that Abhorash beats Grimgor since Abhorash Archaon, yet then says that Human Sigmar > Abhorash.

He says that base Tyrion = Abhorash, yet also says that Abhorash vs Ka'bandha goes either way, with only a slight edge to Ka'bandha lol. So he thinks Tyrion = Abhorash = Ka'bandha.

He also thinks that Abhorash would give Nagash a great fight...

True, but the two quotes ignore this regardless. Point is he's above Vlad and this comes from ETs which out does Rise of Nagash

Rise of Nagash is ET. And note that ET doesn't outdo any other warhammer content anyways, GW has always been very clear that all WH content ranks equally in canonity.

@cheth:

Why is throwing a shaggoth and killing it with that a strength feat above killing stronger creatures by other means?

Because one is based on killing a creature via weaponry and the other is sheer stats. I'm arguing Aenarion has sheer stats along with being equally skilled and having prolly a better weapon than what the White Dwarf brings, hence why Aenarion with the SoK is above the White dwarf imo though

I would actually disagree, for a number of reasons:

I misread your comment and didn't realize the White Dwarf killed the primordial troll a hundred times thanks to his regen, but would you happen to have the fight on hand?

I will still address some of the post here, but not all of it

1. The "father of" monsters are, in general, on the tier of gods themselves. Think of Kalgalanos the Black, Draugnir, The Celestial Dragon Emperor, Krakanrok the Black, etc. The father monsters are exclusively god-tier, and would be odd for trolls to be the one exception.

The Father of certain monsters could be considered god tier because the father of certain monsters aren't equal to all. Take for example your list. You list the Celestial Dragon Emperor this guy is prolly one of the upper dudes not simply out of sheer regen like the father of the trolls or the sheer size of Krakanrok, but also due to the fact the dude has both intelligence and magic on his aspect as well. The dude is basically a mini GEoM ( certainly could be more powerful if we start to get more quotes about him ). So when you compare him to other monsters its likely hes going to out do them and possibly be considered god tier due to not just his sheer stats, but others like magic, IQ, etc. The primordial troll I dont think would be considered all that dangerous to the Celestial Dragon Emperor and some of the others like Krakanrok the black unless you think otherwise?

2. If the White dwarf simply slayed it once I might agree, but its regen was so overpowered it genuinely fully regenerated a hundred times before it died.

I'd have to see the fight again, to fully grasp if I can agree on this or not. Like I said I misread ur post and didn't fully recognize the White Dwarf killing the troll fully 100 times over ( and i assume his kin up until this point as well since i doubt he'd be alone as trolls generally arent alone )

3. The ridicolous amount of other trolls in the fight. the white dwarf killed it a hundred time, and each time it was said to spawn a dozen trolls from its blood. Which means that the White Dwarf fought the father of troll alongside hundreds of other trolls. While trolls of course aren't as strong as greater daemons, they're still incredibly dangerous (there is a reason troll slayers are feared) and capable of breaking fortress walls if they're old enough.

Ah see I just stated that up above as well lol since trolls arent generally alone. I can't comment until I see the fight again

But why is that abetterfeat? Just because they don't do it doesn't mean they're not capable, and based on the feat that they can instantly kill stronger creatures, I would argue they're fully capable.

Because it would prove the white dwarf can hang in the stats department at least in strength. Speed is entire new issue and I'd say SoK Aenarion is also faster. We aren't debating over weaponry we are debating on sheer stats.

What we've agreed upon so far is that their weapons are prolly equal

We both agree they are equally skilled in combat

Now all we have is stats to debate against.

White Dwarf does hold it (stated in Armybooks and WD repeatedly), and there is actually a simple explaination for why Thorgrim and Gotrek have one each; the WD has a third. Not as in there's literarily three axes of grimnir, but what you have to remember is that the white dwarf is not an actual dwarf, he's a spirit, more akin to the green knight. The White Dwarf is the spirit and strength of the dwarfs, and the greatest gifts of the dwarfs are his to wield since he wields the power of the dwarfs themselves. His axe of grimnir is a spiritual axe, but just as, if not stronger, than those wielded by gotrek and thorgrim.

Yes he exists because Malekith went back on his word, I'm aware the White Dwarf is a spirit or dawi spirit of vengeance and fair enough

The comparison is not about combat, its about the nature of their being. Jerrod states he is like the duke and vlad, a vampire. But Vlad is arguing that Abhorash is different, that he is the best not as a fighter or the strongest, but as a person. He is better than other vampires.

I think Vlad is admitting to both simply because later on as we talked about he mentions ( ill have to find it ) that where he stands will be the last to fall in which we don't know exactly because the world is destroyed while a few pockets of resistance are still around ( aka Nagash and a few others including Neferata )

So yes you are right context is important, but I dont think Vlad was just mentioning a better person because he certainly was in Vlad's eyes, but I think he was the prime physical aspect of a Vampire to of which he prolly is since I dont see no one including Vlad throwing a Red Dragon out of a Cave after a fight and ofc winning said fight. However I can always forget or simply not know all of their lore and you might know a few feats of vlads that I'm missing

This one is more fair, as the context is combative. However two things:

1. This at best puts Abhorash = Neferata, someone who is also not on either of our lists and is unlikely to reach the top tiers

Let is remember though, this was in the past before Abhorash has trained and gotten better over the life time now. Meaning this is before he takes off and starts fighting the best of the best and winning, so as of this point Abhorash according to her is possibly her equal so there's that as well. In other words this is before he leaves Nehe and gets even stronger including defeating a Red Dragon in single combat

2. This is set before the vampire wars. Last thing anyone heard of Vlad was that he died in the wars against Alcadizzar. Since then Vlad had gotten his hands on all of the books of Nagash, and would eventually take over Sylvania and become the vampire he is today.

Gah Cheth, I should really read ur full response because its like we're already thinking the same thing XD But covering different aspects XD Would you like to be the Yin to my Yang or my Yang to my Yin? lawl

However, yes so again they're both not at their strongest, the difference is Vlad ruled and although yes he did fight, he overall rolled while Abhorash went out and trained. His lesser as we talked about Walach, was already going to defeat Vlad in CQC and that's something you already agreed as well. The only reason why Vlad won that fight, was simply he mind controlled the Dragon as well. Abhorash should have no issue if he chose to fight vlad to close the distance and engage actively in CQC fast enough to really prevent vlad from focusing on applying any magical skill and although if he does I'd find Vlad struggling more to apply it to him than he did Walach because Vlad didn't over power him with magic, just his dragon. Why his bone dragon; maybe because vlad couldnt or maybe because he thought it'd be funny to troll him. However the feat is up for debate on that aspect

On Vlad's side however we have Armybooks, WDs, and Nagash himself considering Vlad the greatest and most powerful of the vampires. Sure Abhorash beats him in a pure duel of swordsmanship, but Vlad is not only one of the most skilled vampires, he's also the smartest and one of the most powerful, which puts him as the greatest overall, and more than capable of beating Abhorash.

I think our viewpoints are on two different aspects.

For smartest I think that'd be subjective in the sense of if you're arguing overall cleverness and being a general then yes I'd think Vlad would obviously be the smarter of the two. I mean the guy played politics like no one's business was pretty good at it

When it comes to magic most blood dragons arent really focused on this aspect, but considering Abhorash is one of the first turned vampire its likely hes higher than most other vampires so his magic resistance could possibly be higher as well and although if it was a magical duel Vlad obviously wins, but this simply isn't a magical duel and depending on the starting distance we want to give them I doubt Abhorash would allow himself to engage Vlad from afar and make it painfully obvious that hes doing a straight up khorne charge and hoping for the best. Abhorash didn't go around the world challenging the best just to lose like a chump

As for the swordsmanship/stats debate. I'd argue Abhorash beats him in physical stats ( again I dont recall vlad ever chucking an ANCIENT red dragon out like no one's business but I could be wrong ) for actual skill we both agree Abhorash wins

Again those are the comments that Reynolds was forced to delete by GW since he was saying stuff they disagreed with/didn't want him to say. And as shown previously, his statements don't even make sense:

He says that Abhorash beats Grimgor since Abhorash Archaon, yet then says that Human Sigmar > Abhorash.

He says that base Tyrion = Abhorash, yet also says that Abhorash vs Ka'bandha goes either way, with only a slight edge to Ka'bandha lol. So he thinks Tyrion = Abhorash = Ka'bandha.

He also thinks that Abhorash would give Nagash a great fight...

To be fair he did say Nagash would just fodder him via magic, I think he was implying if the two got into an actual physical duel Abhorash would give him a few wounds, but as we mentioned before if we ignore his word that's fine since he is technically stating non canon stuff and since he never got to actually write his novel since WHF was shut down before he could do so

Rise of Nagash is ET. And note that ET doesn't outdo any other warhammer content anyways, GW has always been very clear that all WH content ranks equally in canonity.

Let me rephrase When vlad states it, its the last book of the ET series while Rise of Nagash is the first. That's my bad

As for canon its not about it being not equal, lets say for example way back in the 8th edition and just for argument's sake we see "The Empire has the biggest army that the world has ever seen!" Then in the ET's we get "The skaven have the biggest the world has ever seen!" This would imply the Skaven now have the larger army because before it was the empire, but now the world has witnessed the skaven's army and is basically hinting at it being bigger.

I think the same applies to this situation. Now whether we agree on Vlad admitting Abhorash is superior to him in other aspects except fighting is a whole different story, but for context on lore that's how I view it as the novels if newer replace older ( generally speaking as context is needed as well )

@mordhauextreme1:

Because one is based on killing a creature via weaponry and the other is sheer stats. I'm arguing Aenarion has sheer stats along with being equally skilled and having prolly a better weapon than what the White Dwarf brings, hence why Aenarion with the SoK is above the White dwarf imo though

This however implies that anyone who can perform feats that rely on purely stats > anyone who hasn't, even if the latter has strength feats against greater opponents. For example, Kroq-gar, Nakai, Gor-Rok, Ka'bandha, Skarbrand, etc. Don't have any purely strength feats in that level, would you say that Aenarion is physically stronger than them purely because of that?

I would argue that blocking strikes of, and overpowering them, even if it is blade to blade, still would make for a better strength feat if their opponent is overall much stronger than the one beating a much weaker creature barehanded.

I misread your comment and didn't realize the White Dwarf killed the primordial troll a hundred times thanks to his regen, but would you happen to have the fight on hand?

I didn't mention he beat it a hundred times yet so no worries lol. I can show the fight but not alot to show sadly:

The Father of certain monsters could be considered god tier because the father of certain monsters aren't equal to all.

You are likely correct that they're not all =. However they're all in each other's range. Infact it even makes sense; High elf and dwarf gods are actually just their "primordials". Asuyran and Grimnir are actually just some of the first elfs and dwarfs that were superpowered compared to the rest of their peoples in part since they were taught by the old ones. All the primordials are divinities of a sort, and they have only ever been bested by other primordials, other god-like beings, and the White Dwarf.

And note that while the Celestial Dragon Emperor is powerful, I actually think he is not any stronger than the other two primordial dragons. All three are sires of one aspect of the dragon species, and the big reason why the emperor is considered a greater threat than the rest is simply because he's not sleeping (Kalaganos) or dead (Draugnir).

The troll sire might be weaker, but he's still a divinity. And much greater than a pre-prime Kairos in melee, N'kari the greatest jobber, and two one-off greater daemons. Especially since WD had to kill him a 100 times and with the help of 1200 trolls.

Like I said I misread ur post and didn't fully recognize the White Dwarf killing the troll fully 100 times over

Nah I didn't mention it, no fault of yours

Because it would prove the white dwarf can hang in the stats department at least in strength. Speed is entire new issue and I'd say SoK Aenarion is also faster. We aren't debating over weaponry we are debating on sheer stats.

I disagree on strength (hard to imagine any elf beating a dwarf of the same level in general xD), and while I would agree that Aenarion is comparatively faster, note that WD is quite fast since he's a spirit and killed 10k chaos warriors solo in a day lol. He also has stamina and durability, both due to being a ghost and because he's a dwarf (and due to his seven day long fight feat).

I think Vlad is admitting to both simply because later on as we talked about he mentions ( ill have to find it ) that where he stands will be the last to fall in which we don't know exactly because the world is destroyed while a few pockets of resistance are still around ( aka Nagash and a few others including Neferata )

He mentions it in the quote we've sent twice xD:

"No, Not like that sad, mad warrior or like me. Abhorash is the best of us," Vlad said softly. "He owed a debt to your king, and swore an oath, and while he fights, Bretonnia lives. In some small corner of this shattered land, the heart of all that was Bretonnia survives."

However that has little to do with combat, as the point is that Abhorash is a better person, and therefore will always honour his oath. Whereas even gentleman vampire Vlad is ultimatively selfish except when it comes to Isabella.

since I dont see no one including Vlad throwing a Red Dragon out of a Cave after a fight and ofc winning said fight. However I can always forget or simply not know all of their lore and you might know a few feats of vlads that I'm missing

I will not disagree that purely physically Abhorash is a better fighter, but Vlad is still an excellent swordfighter, among vampires only second to Abhorash and Walach, to an unknown extent. And Vlad makes up for that gap in that he's smarter, and more importantly much more powerful and skilled with magic. And Vlad casually stomping the Glottkin, beating Walach in a one-shot scenario, stomping Mannfred while holding back at his absolute weakest and at a gear disadvantage, casually disarming and overpowering Isabella the accursed, etc. are all feats that put him above beating a single dragon.

Let is remember though, this was in the past before Abhorash has trained and gotten better over the life time now. Meaning this is before he takes off and starts fighting the best of the best and winning, so as of this point Abhorash according to her is possibly her equal so there's that as well. In other words this is before he leaves Nehe and gets even stronger including defeating a Red Dragon in single combat

True, but then there's the question who grew more. And for Abhorash he already was an amazing swordsman, and simply improved in that aspect. Though even defeating a red dragon is a feat that at least a dozen (incredibly impressive) individuals has performed. And after that he kind of went off the grid, only showing up to turn the Red Duke into a vampire and vanishing again.

Meanwhile Vlad gathered the nine books of nagash, trained swordsmanship, stalked and followed many wars and courts, and eventually lead a long war. Just the nine books alone would be a massive power boost, as even one is a huge powerup to high-tier mages like Melkihor and Mannfred.

Gah Cheth, I should really read ur full response because its like we're already thinking the same thing XD But covering different aspects XD Would you like to be the Yin to my Yang or my Yang to my Yin? lawl

Think I already might be lol, lots of similar opinions but also opposite

His lesser as we talked about Walach, was already going to defeat Vlad in CQC and that's something you already agreed as well.

Walach is his lesser yes, but he's only the second to Abhorash's first. That still leaves Vlad at the third. And note I agreed to the fact that Walach is more skilled, but Vlad is more powerful, faster, stronger.

although if he does I'd find Vlad struggling more to apply it to him than he did Walach because Vlad didn't over power him with magic, just his dragon. Why his bone dragon; maybe because vlad couldnt or maybe because he thought it'd be funny to troll him. However the feat is up for debate on that aspect

Vlad took the dragon since it was ontop of him and about to eat him xD

There's a reason why Walach decided to start the encounter by landing ontop of Vlad and pinning him instead of trying to challenge him in a direct fight despite their mounts being dragon vs horse and Walach being amped by chaos.

And note that nothing prevents Vlad from casting mid-combat. Its done repeatedly by Malekith, Eltharion, Arkhan, Mannfred, etc. Infact its Abhorash who would have to deal with Vlad's swordskill while also having to fend off the magical attacks and abilities of a mage several tiers above him.

but considering Abhorash is one of the first turned vampire its likely hes higher than most other vampires so his magic resistance could possibly be higher as well

Note that yes, he would be more powerful than most vampires inherently, that doesn't automatically mean he can bridge the gap between the fact that he's never ever practiced magic. While he could likely resist some magic Gotrek style, there are limits to willpower aspects of magic resistance. And Vlad has lots of strong spells, such as turning into clouds and bats to distance himself, raising armies of the dead, or doing offensive spells to weaken or kill Abhorash. The issue is that Abhorash has to rely purely on outduelling Vlad, and while he could, that necessiates Vlad just allowing that to happen, when in reality he could use magic to catch Abhorash off-guard or to distance himself and choose how to engage at all times, only allowing their blades to cross when it suits him.

I'd argue Abhorash beats him in physical stats

In terms of actual strength I agree, but you have to remember that Vlad still has vampiric strength himself, and is noted as the physically strongest vampire count. You even have nerds like Mannfred casually blocking and breaking the blades of a blood knight grandmaster with his palm. While Abhorash likely is stronger, I doubt that is a gap that he could easily take advantage off. And in turn I would argue that Vlad is much faster, more agile and more refined.

for actual skill we both agree Abhorash wins

Yeah no doubt

Let me rephrase When vlad states it, its the last book of the ET series while Rise of Nagash is the first. That's my bad

As for canon its not about it being not equal, lets say for example way back in the 8th edition and just for argument's sake we see "The Empire has the biggest army that the world has ever seen!" Then in the ET's we get "The skaven have the biggest the world has ever seen!" This would imply the Skaven now have the larger army because before it was the empire, but now the world has witnessed the skaven's army and is basically hinting at it being bigger.

The issue here is who states it. If an imperial states "The empire has the biggest army in the world", because he's never seen the skaven army, thats an issue of perspective, not of whats factual. However then we have Vlad stating "Abhorash is not like me and the red duke since he is a good person and follows an oath", and compare it to Nagash choosing Vlad specifically since he's the greatest vampire, and other sources constantly calling Vlad the greatest, then I don't think arguing that Vlad maybe also meant that its about combat is enough to exceed them.

The way I see it: Vlad is rarely the best at anything. Abhorash is more skilled than him, and Zacharias is the most powerful. Neferata is more devious, and Mannfred more cunning. Even Konrad's got him beat as the most insane. But the thing that makes Vlad supreme is that he mixes Mannfred's cunning, Abhorash's skill, Zacharias's power, Konrad's insanity, Neferata's deviousness, Ushoran's intellect, and slaps his ambition and authority ontop of it all, which allows him to counter the fact that he's worse in one aspect than another vampire by drawing on all the countless sides he does exceed them at.

realised I forgot to tag @spider-simp@exmaster3000

@cheth: Gonna have to respond to this tomorrow good sir been caught up with some personal issues :/

No stress mate, I am studying for exams anyways, wish you well with whats happening

@cheth:

This however implies that anyone who can perform feats that rely on purely stats > anyone who hasn't, even if the latter has strength feats against greater opponents. For example, Kroq-gar, Nakai, Gor-Rok, Ka'bandha, Skarbrand, etc. Don't have any purely strength feats in that level, would you say that Aenarion is physically stronger than them purely because of that?

Aenarion should 100% be phyiscally stronger than kroq-gar and Gor-Rok because of the Sword of Khaine. Ka'bandha and Skarbrand out of sheer size should be around the same level as well. My point being unlike these dudes who are rather vague and generally not used much. Elves, Empire/Bretonnia, Dawi and Orcs have generally been the focus for the WH setting outside of Daemons/WoC here and there.

The physical stats part comes down to this argument because up until this point we agree

The White Dwarf and Aenarion are equal in weaponry and combat experience.

If this is the case the generally stats are bound to be argued so we can give one or the other the lead. IF we can't give them the lead, then that leaves us again to disagree in the fact you placed the White Dwarf above Aenarion which in this case as we're arguing would make them equals rather than below one another and it'd come down to personal preference in which I'm fine with, but I think the overall goal of this thread is to settle who's best. The SoK imo amps Aenarion quite reasonably high, stupidly high. Because otherwise it wouldn't be worth damning your entire bloodline and making you go insane

So to answer your question, no we can be somewhat reasonable in thinking the two other greater daemons are fairly large and thus could match in strength in that aspect. As for Kroq-Gar, although strong his feats mostly come around either command, winning fights via sheer skill, or applying magic. He's always came across more like Captain America but obviously better stats. I'd say logically Gor-Rok is even stronger than Kroq-Gar due to the fact he literally already starts off as a much larger Saurus and over time ( granted younger than both Nakai and Kroq-gar by a reasonable amount ) is still overall stronger and so on. Gor-Rok might have the stats to possibly withstand Aenarion simply out of this quote

always looking for another opening to attack, while never himself taking a single step backwards.

-Warhammer Fantasy: Lizardmen 8th Edition

but that's an entire different thing to argue for or against.

To answer your question Nakai vs Aenarion would end with Aenarion winning ( with SoK without it I'd take Nakai ) same against Kroq-gar, and gor-rok. Because either aenarion has the magical resistance, physical speed, or the physical strength above any of the three. When it comes to Skarbrand and Ka'bandha I think Aenarion has a shot at winning, but I'm not 100% sure, but I dont think he's out muscling either of the Greater Daemons much like how Nakai isn't out muscling them either nor the White Dwarf

I would argue that blocking strikes of, and overpowering them, even if it is blade to blade, still would make for a better strength feat if their opponent is overall much stronger than the one beating a much weaker creature barehanded.

Blocking strikes sure, but let me ask you wants more impressive. Abhorash blocking strikes from an orc, or simply running through it and turning it into red mist? The difference, one was done out of skill barring some good strength in the aspect of deflecting an orc blow... the other applying sheer stats alone to bust through someone and turning them into red mist out of again sheer stats. If I could blow your blows vs run through you and turn you into paste which one seems more impressive?

I didn't mention he beat it a hundred times yet so no worries lol. I can show the fight but not alot to show sadly:

Oh snap I remember this comic, and a few others as well. Wish Warhammer did more comics like they do for 40k, but to the comic, yes I'd say power varies greatly. I think the more impressive aspects of it is the white dwarf slaying multiple troll mooks all while dealing with the Troll Father along with doing it for 6 days. I dont think I'd place the Troll king above someone like Nakai and much like Nakai's issue, the Troll Father is somewhat featless ( somewhat because he was capable of fighting Grimmy for 6 days so we know he can at least fight for 6 days, but his skill suggests otherwise in the fact he had 100 reset times to attempt to kill the dwarf all while failing to do so every time which can mean either poor skill, sheer stupidity ( as trolls are ) or simply lacked proper gear to defend himself which is kind of what we're arguing right now with

Again this doesnt mean this feat isn't impressive, but we'd have to know more about the Ghrandukker first than anything else

You are likely correct that they're not all =. However they're all in each other's range. Infact it even makes sense; High elf and dwarf gods are actually just their "primordials". Asuyran and Grimnir are actually just some of the first elfs and dwarfs that were superpowered compared to the rest of their peoples in part since they were taught by the old ones. All the primordials are divinities of a sort, and they have only ever been bested by other primordials, other god-like beings, and the White Dwarf.

You are correct, in the fact they are "primordials" because IIRC somewhere its stated the Elf and Dwarf gods are just those in the past life times that have already lost and came back ( much like AoS ), but I'd have to find the quote. However for "father" of each other it might put them in their ball park, but tbh.... lets think about this for a second

Would you say a Dragon is equal to a troll? I mean there's different level of dragons and granted there's different level of trolls but the variety for dragons generally gets better as they generally get more powerful while trolls vary wildly. Overall though again

Open field 1 Dragon vs 1 troll who wins?

How about 1 Dragon Ogre Shaggoth vs 1 troll ( Ik its a little off compared to a regular dragon ogre, but lets not pretend Krakanrok the Black isn't massive lol ) but who wins?

I mean the Dragon by and far logically should stomp the troll. The Troll in general is rather stupid and heavily relies on its regen. Is Ghrandukker stupid, prolly not, but would you say hes as wise as Grimnir, Asuyran, etc? Prolly not as well

And note that while the Celestial Dragon Emperor is powerful, I actually think he is not any stronger than the other two primordial dragons. All three are sires of one aspect of the dragon species, and the big reason why the emperor is considered a greater threat than the rest is simply because he's not sleeping (Kalaganos) or dead (Draugnir).

Agreed, but he I'd say the CDEis also again a lot more powerful than Ghrand in general he may not have his natural regen, but everything points that he should obviously stomp Ghrand as well

The troll sire might be weaker, but he's still a divinity. And much greater than a pre-prime Kairos in melee, N'kari the greatest jobber, and two one-off greater daemons. Especially since WD had to kill him a 100 times and with the help of 1200 trolls.

But wouldn't that make him weaker than the Greater Daemons since they dont get the reset button 100 times with obvious extra help? ( do note ik Daemons get a reset button, but obviously have to come back ) Kairos with magic alone should defeat all the fodder given. Granted this is back when Kairos also didn't have two heads. However, let's note when in physical combat or in the present without pre-planned stuff two headed kairos kinda sucks at combat compared to his single head since that's the whole gimmick of Kairos when he has two heads. N'kari is indeed a jobber, but hes still a greater Daemon of slaanesh and is quite quick, obviously more than enough to prolly again clear 12 trolls at a time and also lets note N'Kari states the sword had weakened him and it was possible it could of entirely killed him as well

Meaning his later versions that we see ( as far as Ik ) arent as strong, so when Tyrion or Malekith gives him the beat down, hes still not at his prime when we see him fight Aenarion. Ill edit and find the quote, but im gonna get food now since I finished everything else and then look for it )

and the other two, but with all 4 Kairos' magic should harm Ghrand ( it didnt really harm or affect Aenarion as much simply due to again the SoK providing magical assistance ), GOU's magic should also do pretty good, the bloodthirster even in Aenarion's eyes was one of the most deadly fodder out there and it two shotted Indraugnir as well, so there's that granted Indraugnir was in the middle of doing a victory roar so... there's that lol, but still Bloodthirsters are indeed top tier fodder and would absolutely clap trolls as well,

An explosion of dragon flesh and dragon blood smashed into Aenarion's face. An enormous gash appeared in the dragon's side and a burning axe emerged from it. Indraugnir toppled backwards, a huge hole carved in its flank. Its triumphant cry died in its throat. Aenarion's heart sank. Before him was a Bloodthirster, a greater Daemon of Khorne, perhaps the deadliest creature in all creation save for the Blood God himself. It was a massive thing with mighty wings and a monstrous animal head. Its eyes blazed like falling meteors. Its huge form was encased in runic armour of bronze and black iron. It radiated an aura of power greater than that possessed by any living creature Aenarion had ever faced.

The Bloodthirster struck again, with the force of a thousand thunderbolts, and Indraugnir bellowed and was still. Only its tail gave one last reflexive twitch and all life seemed to go out of it. Aenarion's awareness narrowed until it contained only himself and the Daemon. They were like the last two living things in the ruins of a dead world.

-Warhammer Fantasy: Blood of Aenarion

We all know Aenarion manage to surprise the Bloodthirster while weak already to both the GOU's magic and Kairos' magic, even Kairos' talons were able to pierce Aenarion's armor which was IIRC from Indraugnir and fused with various magical defenses up top of the SoK, so even if this is pre prime Kairos, it matters not as his magic is still just as deadly as ever

Overall these four would at the very least prolly match the troll father and or possibly beat it depending on how hard u really want these greater daemons to job, so again we're looking at equals in this aspect which is why I'm stating stats now matter and what the White dwarf has for stats to compare to Aenarion

Nah I didn't mention it, no fault of yours

Fair enough

I disagree on strength (hard to imagine any elf beating a dwarf of the same level in general xD), and while I would agree that Aenarion is comparatively faster, note that WD is quite fast since he's a spirit and killed 10k chaos warriors solo in a day lol. He also has stamina and durability, both due to being a ghost and because he's a dwarf (and due to his seven day long fight feat).

Don't get me wrong, I never claimed a standard elf is beating a dwarf, as Elves at their best strength wise are peak human. Speed and skill is what carries the elves along with again magical weaponry. You wont see me claiming a regular elf being equal to a dwarf in strength. However, Aenarion isn't some regular elf he has the SoK on him and that's what gives him the edge. That's why I'm asking what strength feats does the White dwarf have. Even Grimgor has strength feats of smashing a tower and such, so we need to see what the white dwarf has before we can move on

Remember Aenarion was also spanking chaos as well as shown down below,

As they approached the Isle of the Dead, horror and wonder filled his mind in equal measure. Thousands of crude ships filled the sea, delivering legions of monsters to the shores of the island.

Hundreds of thousands of twisted beings filled the beaches beneath him, some the size of elves, some the size of dragons and every size and shape in between. Here and there things raised hands or claws or a staff to the sky and a futile bolt of magical energy blasted skyward to strike a dragon impotently. At this range and height there was nothing their foes could do to harm them. Those flying Chaos creatures that dared to rise and challenge them were blasted from the sky...

....

Each of the armies was led by a greater daemon sworn to those powers, chosen representatives of the daemon gods. They were mighty beyond the understanding of mortals. They had led their forces to countless victories in countless places. The fact that they were all gathered here argued that the daemonic leaders understood quite as well as he did exactly how important this place was, that the fate of the world would be decided by what happened here today.

...

A group of elf soldiers tried to fight their way towards the embattled Phoenix King but died before they could reach him, overwhelmed by the sheer number of their foes. Aenarion leapt from Indraugnir’s back, like a swimmer diving into a sea of monstrous flesh. His blade flickered faster than mortal eyes could follow, smashing through the bodies of his enemies as if they were made from matchwood. A dragon ogre leapt at him, jaws snapping; he caught it in the air one handed, and sent it flying a hundred yards with a flick of his arm. It cartwheeled through the air to splatter against the walls of the shrine.

Aenarion cleaved through his opponents, killing everything within reach, his blade sending pulses of black light over the battlefield, the red runes glowing ever stronger as it drank life. His enemies died in their hundreds and then their thousands. Nothing could stand against him, and seeing his unleashed wrath his foes turned to flee.

-Warhammer Fantasy: Blood of Aenarion

No one was even touching him and he was blitzing them all much like Madara vs the 5 armies, so once again what strength feats does the white dwarf have? The 7 day fight is more of a stamina aspect vs strength. As for durability and being a ghost, those generally help, but the Widow Maker makes no difference since it was capable of cutting through a Bloodthirster clean through, cut through Kairos' magic straight through, one shotted Kairos a being of pure magic as stated along with the fact it greatly perm weakened N'kari as well, so on the spiritual aspect this wont matter much. Dwarf natural immunity to magical weaponry is great, but this is kinda like Khorne where it's again also anti magical via u know... cutting Kairos' magic in half Xd

He mentions it in the quote we've sent twice xD:

I swore there was another quote, but I guess I was wrong huehuehjeuheuheuehe Xd

However that has little to do with combat, as the point is that Abhorash is a better person, and therefore will always honour his oath. Whereas even gentleman vampire Vlad is ultimatively selfish except when it comes to Isabella.

This is possible especially with the kingdom part, but again unlike Vlad Abhorash has spent most of his history fighting the best constantly and all while Vlad more and less planned and planned to conquer the Empire and spending time with Isabella

I will not disagree that purely physically Abhorash is a better fighter, but Vlad is still an excellent swordfighter, among vampires only second to Abhorash and Walach, to an unknown extent. And Vlad makes up for that gap in that he's smarter, and more importantly much more powerful and skilled with magic. And Vlad casually stomping the Glottkin, beating Walach in a one-shot scenario, stomping Mannfred while holding back at his absolute weakest and at a gear disadvantage, casually disarming and overpowering Isabella the accursed, etc. are all feats that put him above beating a single dragon.

In the magical aspect I never claimbed Abhorash would win, I said he'd prolly close the gab before Vlad would be able to caste anything was my point.

As for Walach he didn't technically even one shot him, just used his dragon to win. If Vlad was confident in his actual bladed abilities he would of simply sent the dragon away or dismembered it since even during that battle Vlad already stated that Walach's forces arriving were nothing but overkill already. This wasn't the case though as they had turned to Chaos. Vlad in turn over powered his dragon and used said dragon to one shot Walach

Overall I agree that Vlad is again better at magic than Abhorash which is why I stated location and intention matters greatly here. If Aborash starts within a reasonable distance there's no reason for him not to be able to defeat Vlad, but if Vlad can whip out his powers there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to hinder Abhorash or out right destroy him in that aspect ( I'm not sure since Abhorash lacks feats in general )

As for the dragon, this wasn't a regular single dragon and Zacharius being a very higher tier mage for the vampires chose to drain one while it slept rather than fight it like Abhorash, and my point wasn't Abhorash "defeating" the dragon, my point was Abhorash physically throwing it off a mountain, no vampire is matching that implying abhorash is not only more skilled, but more than likely is the most physically fit vampire there is. I think vlad is still a very skilled vampire and his magic could certainly be enough to defeat Abhorash, but as mentioned this all comes down to starting locations and so on

True, but then there's the question who grew more. And for Abhorash he already was an amazing swordsman, and simply improved in that aspect. Though even defeating a red dragon is a feat that at least a dozen (incredibly impressive) individuals has performed. And after that he kind of went off the grid, only showing up to turn the Red Duke into a vampire and vanishing again.

Correct, no one on this list isn't capable of defeating an ancient red dragon. However unlike vlad who yes very powerful but played more of a political game rather than go out and hunt across the world for "worthy" challenges and creating at least 1 solid order who's knights are very elite ( Blood Dragons ) its likely Abhorash overall became stronger of the two. As you mentioned though and for obvious reasons. If Vlad can apply his magic before the first really kicks off he should have a much easier time winning. I'd say he one shots but again we don't know what Abhorash has for magical resistance other than fighting mook daemons and stuff

Meanwhile Vlad gathered the nine books of nagash, trained swordsmanship, stalked and followed many wars and courts, and eventually lead a long war. Just the nine books alone would be a massive power boost, as even one is a huge powerup to high-tier mages like Melkihor and Mannfred.

Correct, as I said the magical aspect I dont see much going. Also Vlad fighting wars doesn't necessary mean a ton when u got a dude going around fighting almost nonstop. Vlad took time to prep, conformed a province, etc, these are years wasted while Abhorash never technically "stopped" and that was the point. It's like saying Karl Franz is a skilled fighter and has also lead wars as well, but does that make him equal to his champion, no. Vlad unlike Karl Franz though is still extremely skilled and has magic on his side so there's that instead

Think I already might be lol, lots of similar opinions but also opposite

Then let me pain u a picture and we shall forever be in balance; Cathay ftw btw

Walach is his lesser yes, but he's only the second to Abhorash's first. That still leaves Vlad at the third. And note I agreed to the fact that Walach is more skilled, but Vlad is more powerful, faster, stronger.

Stronger prolly, but faster I'm not sure, simply because again Vlad does admit Walach is the more accomplished fighter, but as we are both talking vampires don't need to rely on brute force ( hence why I said if Vlad starts far away enough he can apply magic to Abhorash )

Harkon might have been the more accomplished warrior, but a vampire's arts were broader and subtler by far than mere bladesmanship.

-Warhammer Fantasy: End Times; Nagash

( Ironically I was gonna post this in our last thread but.... u know CV being a pain lol )

Vlad took the dragon since it was ontop of him and about to eat him xD

Ofc, but it doesnt matter since we all know once a vampire dies, whatever is tethered to it goes along with it. You suggesting Vlad can't lift part of a dragon??? MHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH XD

There's a reason why Walach decided to start the encounter by landing ontop of Vlad and pinning him instead of trying to challenge him in a direct fight despite their mounts being dragon vs horse and Walach being amped by chaos.

I mean even if they both had horses the statement still stands. Granted yes Walach was already on a dragon, but he decided to give a speech about how awesome his order was and how the carsteins sucked all while vlad easily cucked him

Walach without the amp is still above Vlad in that aspect though as vlad mentions nothing about his amp more than the fact hes annoyed that he turned to Khorne and undid a battle he had technically already won with Karl Franz and others

And note that nothing prevents Vlad from casting mid-combat. Its done repeatedly by Malekith, Eltharion, Arkhan, Mannfred, etc. Infact its Abhorash who would have to deal with Vlad's swordskill while also having to fend off the magical attacks and abilities of a mage several tiers above him.

I wouldn't be so sure, if vlad's already pressed horribly in melee combat by a person equal or better than him hes not going to have time to caste anything really. Malekith and the rest generally are dealing with more than simply "one person" casting magic and or are mages themselves as well where both parties are casting spells. Its more akin to Valkia vs Malekith, but unlike Valkia vlad and Abhorash would be on foot not flying around and playing cat and mouse

Note that yes, he would be more powerful than most vampires inherently, that doesn't automatically mean he can bridge the gap between the fact that he's never ever practiced magic. While he could likely resist some magic Gotrek style, there are limits to willpower aspects of magic resistance. And Vlad has lots of strong spells, such as turning into clouds and bats to distance himself, raising armies of the dead, or doing offensive spells to weaken or kill Abhorash. The issue is that Abhorash has to rely purely on outduelling Vlad, and while he could, that necessiates Vlad just allowing that to happen, when in reality he could use magic to catch Abhorash off-guard or to distance himself and choose how to engage at all times, only allowing their blades to cross when it suits him.

Agreed, which is why I state magic is what will kill Abhorash nothing short of it to. I did forget Vlad does do clouds, bats wouldn't be as big of an issue since Abhorash could keep up unless Vlad starts blasting from the skies ( hence the I dont remember all his feats. ) I got his vampire wars book on my shelf and I could certainly crack it open, but its along a big ass book and would rather not spend a few days to a week reading it again Xd

In terms of actual strength I agree, but you have to remember that Vlad still has vampiric strength himself, and is noted as the physically strongest vampire count. You even have nerds like Mannfred casually blocking and breaking the blades of a blood knight grandmaster with his palm. While Abhorash likely is stronger, I doubt that is a gap that he could easily take advantage off. And in turn I would argue that Vlad is much faster, more agile and more refined.

True, but I'd have to read more on manny boi again cause overall hes had some impressive feats other than breaking blades, but hes also the second strongest in the family to so there's that. As for agile and faster I dont think vlad is in either case as pre vampire Abhorash already deflected at least a few dozen arrows to hundreds with nothing but his twin swords, so even human wise he was prolly better than vlad and with his vampire stats? Prolly above him to in all aspect. In the refined aspect as mentioned up above Vlad spent time other than fighting, Abhorash hasn't so him being refined is less likely to be the case unless ure talking about magic included then yes I agree

The issue here is who states it. If an imperial states "The empire has the biggest army in the world", because he's never seen the skaven army, thats an issue of perspective, not of whats factual. However then we have Vlad stating "Abhorash is not like me and the red duke since he is a good person and follows an oath", and compare it to Nagash choosing Vlad specifically since he's the greatest vampire, and other sources constantly calling Vlad the greatest, then I don't think arguing that Vlad maybe also meant that its about combat is enough to exceed them.

Agreed on lore, and why i say it matters is because Neferata knew Vlad very well and knew Abhorash around the same. Hence why I stated that. However for Nagash choosing he's also reached out to others like Zach and when they said no he blasted them. Do we know if Nagash reached out to Abhorash ( I can't remember )

The way I see it: Vlad is rarely the best at anything. Abhorash is more skilled than him, and Zacharias is the most powerful. Neferata is more devious, and Mannfred more cunning. Even Konrad's got him beat as the most insane. But the thing that makes Vlad supreme is that he mixes Mannfred's cunning, Abhorash's skill, Zacharias's power, Konrad's insanity, Neferata's deviousness, Ushoran's intellect, and slaps his ambition and authority ontop of it all, which allows him to counter the fact that he's worse in one aspect than another vampire by drawing on all the countless sides he does exceed them at.

That's a fair statement, but I got only one question...... Did Abhorash get blitzed by a human and fell to his death while the human hung on top of him and they both fell on a wooden stake? XD

In all seriousness this is actually a great statement and something I feel reasonably standing upon as well

great post

my opinion = fax

ur opinion = creditless

Thank you!

@mordhauextreme1:

Aenarion should 100% be phyiscally stronger than kroq-gar and Gor-Rok because of the Sword of Khaine.

I mean both Kroq-gar and Gor-rok have weapons made from the Old Ones lol, Kroq-gar has a particularily strong one as well, and Khaine is just one of many creations of the Old ones.

My point being unlike these dudes who are rather vague and generally not used much. Elves, Empire/Bretonnia, Dawi and Orcs have generally been the focus for the WH setting outside of Daemons/WoC here and there.

While I sadly have to agree that many factions have been neglected (although I would actually put wood elves and bretonnia in a middle room between neglected and focus), that shouldn't be cause for us automatically putting them below those not neglected. It will make it more difficult to accurately place them, true, but that doesn't mean that they should be sub them, hence my placement of for example Kroq-gar; from what we know of him, his feat against chaos should be > aenarion's, and thats the strongest point of comparison we have between the two.

The White Dwarf and Aenarion are equal in weaponry and combat experience.

Big disagree. First off, its very likely that WD was born before Aenarion. The Old Ones created Elves and Dwarfs roughly at the same time, and both the first elves and first dwarfs were the gods of their kind. WD was the first child of the gods, making him the first dwarf ever. By the time Aenarion was around, the first high elves were already gods not among their people, which implies he's not one of the first-born elves (and nothing suggests he's the child of any of the gods either). Then we have the fact that Aenarion died in -4421 IC. 8th Ed stops at 2521 IC. While Snorri also was dead for a while, he died and returned within the reign of three phoenix kings; all of which were killed. WD is milennia older than Aenarion, and all the milennia as WD were purely spent fighting.

The SoK imo amps Aenarion quite reasonably high, stupidly high.

Yeah, but WD has an axe of grimnir. And unlike those carried by Gotrek and Thorgrim, its runes are fully active

And in terms of other gear; they both have pretty solid armour (although note that WD's is noted to be made by the gods and be made of a wholly different metal than any other dwarf work, while Aenarion's is still made by mortals. But in addition WD also has a god-made cloak and a rune-helm. Which means WD has better gear.

So to answer your question, no we can be somewhat reasonable in thinking the two other greater daemons are fairly large and thus could match in strength in that aspect. As for Kroq-Gar, although strong his feats mostly come around either command, winning fights via sheer skill, or applying magic. He's always came across more like Captain America but obviously better stats. I'd say logically Gor-Rok is even stronger than Kroq-Gar due to the fact he literally already starts off as a much larger Saurus and over time ( granted younger than both Nakai and Kroq-gar by a reasonable amount ) is still overall stronger and so on

Kroq-gar is captain america if captain america was a dinosaur with two of the most powerful weapons in existance (both personal Old One weapons), and who could fight trillions of daemons alone for centuries. Note that even during the battle of the Isle of the dead, the biggest HE battle, they only faced hundreds of thousands of daemons; the invasion of Lustria started with an invasion of trillions.

Gor-Rok might have the stats to possibly withstand Aenarion simply out of this quote

Don't really think that quote does much, pretty sure even Ludwig Schwartzhelm has one like it. Seems a typical "big and strong" type of quote

To answer your question Nakai vs Aenarion would end with Aenarion winning ( with SoK without it I'd take Nakai ) same against Kroq-gar, and gor-rok. Because either aenarion has the magical resistance, physical speed, or the physical strength above any of the three. When it comes to Skarbrand and Ka'bandha I think Aenarion has a shot at winning, but I'm not 100% sure, but I dont think he's out muscling either of the Greater Daemons much like how Nakai isn't out muscling them either nor the White Dwarf

(WD has quotes implying that he could outmuscle any other WH character but lets not talk about that yet xD)

Feel like most of this is insubstantiated. Aenarion's magic resistance was oneshotted by both Kairos and Throttle, both of which frankly should be sub Kroq-gar's gear. We have little cause to believe Aenarion > any of them in speed (the only argument for that is superhuman elf speed + SoK. But the speed of elves is not greater than that of lizardmen on average, and Kroq-gar has better gear than Aenarion, Gor-rok has somewhat worse, and Nakai's is hard to quantify, could be much better or worse). And in terms of strength I'd hold all three above.

Honestly don't think Aenarion has a shot at all. While one could say that one-head kairos > two head kairos in melee, that still doesn't excuse Aenarion nearly dying to a lord of change in melee, and certainly removes credibility for him facing Ka'bandha, who can casually tangle with multiple incarnates at once, and even stalemate Nagash. Much less Skarbrand who's the most powerful BS ever.

Blocking strikes sure, but let me ask you wants more impressive. Abhorash blocking strikes from an orc, or simply running through it and turning it into red mist? The difference, one was done out of skill barring some good strength in the aspect of deflecting an orc blow... the other applying sheer stats alone to bust through someone and turning them into red mist out of again sheer stats. If I could blow your blows vs run through you and turn you into paste which one seems more impressive?

This is a false comparison. If Aenarion had picked up a high-tier bloodthirster and simply torn it apart barehanded with as much ease as he killed the dragon ogre, and WD's best feat was barely beating a bloodthirster in melee, of course Aenarion would be superior. But thats not the case. You're arguing that killing a dragon ogre with pure strength > matching greater daemons in strength, which is simply not true.

A more accurate description would be, whats more impressive; Abhorash blocking the strikes of Grimgor Ironhide, or simply running through an orc boy and turning it into a red mist?

the Troll Father is somewhat featless ( somewhat because he was capable of fighting Grimmy for 6 days so we know he can at least fight for 6 days, but his skill suggests otherwise in the fact he had 100 reset times to attempt to kill the dwarf all while failing to do so every time which can mean either poor skill, sheer stupidity ( as trolls are ) or simply lacked proper gear to defend himself which is kind of what we're arguing right now with

I mean, which of the "fathers" have feats? The best feats of the primordial dragons is dying (except dragon emperor), the best feat of the primordial dragon ogre is sleeping, etc. Featwise the troll father is one of the strongest primordials, all the others have is size and being > the rest of their kin. Of course we can reasonably expect that the "fathers" of the stronger races are > the "fathers" of lesser races, but seems both unlikely that there is a stomp gap between them (if there was, it seems likely the weaker races would likely have been turned extinct before their father had time to produce the next of their kin), and it also lends the question of; if we scale them by race alone, and we know that average trolls > average dwarfs, elves and humans, shouldn't the trollfather beat Grimnir, Asuyran, and Ulfric? Of course, for obvious reasons that is not the case, but it would still seem odd that of every race in existance, specifically the urfather of trolls, one of the stronger races in the settings, is supposed to be huge gaps weaker, does it not?

As for skill, trolls are still more skilled than dragons who don't even wield weapons xD. And while trolls are stupid, they still can fight. If lack of skill, intelligence and proper gear made it unimpressive to beat an opponent, I doubt Gotrek Gurnisson, Snorri Nosebiter, and Malakai would take such pride in calling themselves trollslayers. I also then doubt that Gorfang Rotgut, one of the strongest orc warbosses we know of, would nearly get killed by an average troll.

What trolls lacked in skill, intelligence and gear, they make up for with the fact that they are multiple times the size of their opponent, have high-tier regen, are strong enough to kill just about anything physically, and have acid breath. They might not have magical gear, but it hardly matters when they wield boulders as clubs. Also worth noting regarding intelligence; in the comic we see the troll father has rope around his arms and skulls tied together on his body, indicating he is actually intelligent.

Open field 1 Dragon vs 1 troll who wins?

Dragons are besides bloodthirsters, carnosaurs and dread saurians the strongest creatures on the planet

How about 1 Dragon Ogre Shaggoth vs 1 troll ( Ik its a little off compared to a regular dragon ogre, but lets not pretend Krakanrok the Black isn't massive lol ) but who wins?

Kind of a false equivalency, as you're taking the weakest iteration of trolls vs the strongest of the dragon ogres. Regular dragon ogres are somewhat taller than actual ogres, whereas regular trolls vary from roughly the same size to bigger. Overall they're roughly same-sized, with dragon ogres having the advantage in movement speed, and trolls in strength, durability and regen.

But lets then look at Dragon Ogre Shaggoths. We know that they are alot taller than regular dragon ogres, although their actual size varies. Best would be to say that the average ones are slightly shorter than Giants. And this is taller than most trolls, but you also have to consider that regular trolls can grow this big:

And that there are also other troll variations such as stone trolls, chaos trolls, sea trolls, etc. which are much stronger than regular trolls. And while I'm still inclined to support that Krakanrok is > the troll father, and that the former is bigger, it still remains the fact that for the trollfather to be stomp gaps bellow, he would have to be the weakest urfather we know of, despite belonging to one of the strongest monstrous races.

But wouldn't that make him weaker than the Greater Daemons since they dont get the reset button 100 times with obvious extra help?

No? The trollfather has the inherent strength of trolls + the power of an urfather, combined with having regen that gives him a rest button to the point he can fully die and regen back a 100 times in 6 days. Why would having regen make you weaker? If Ka'bandha was the same as before, but also gained high-tier regeneration, would you say he's weaker than base Ka'bandha?

Kairos with magic alone should defeat all the fodder given. Granted this is back when Kairos also didn't have two heads. However, let's note when in physical combat or in the present without pre-planned stuff two headed kairos kinda sucks at combat compared to his single head since that's the whole gimmick of Kairos when he has two heads.

Frankly I am not sure Kairos could do so. If we exclude ET low showings maybe one could argue he's on Teclis's level, but even then its not assured he would beat 1200 trolls. A dozen sea trolls killed a verminlord which previously matched (and nearly killed) a dragon mage (not as in a Caledorian mage, this is a legitimate dragon which uses magic, note that using magic is usually reserved for Emperor dragons). And even if Kairos could, that would be a magic feat, not something Aenarion scales from. Also note only prime Kairos could be teclis level, and he is massively above his one-headed version as a mage.

N'kari is indeed a jobber, but hes still a greater Daemon of slaanesh and is quite quick, obviously more than enough to prolly again clear 12 trolls at a time and also lets note N'Kari states the sword had weakened him and it was possible it could of entirely killed him as well

N'kari probably could beat alot of trolls, but even at the height of his power is hard to see him solo such an army. Also doubt he could kill 12 of a time, since even characters like Gorfang can't kill one in one shot due to durability and regen, and N'kari in the temple of Asuyran could only down like 6 phoenix guard at a time, which are much smaller and less durable. N'kari might injure 12 at a time with magic, but they would regen probs.

Meaning his later versions that we see ( as far as Ik ) arent as strong, so when Tyrion or Malekith gives him the beat down

Malekith is stated to fight N'kari at the height of his power in their first duel, although am interested to see that quote

and the other two, but with all 4 Kairos' magic should harm Ghrand ( it didnt really harm or affect Aenarion as much simply due to again the SoK providing magical assistance ), GOU's magic should also do pretty good, the bloodthirster even in Aenarion's eyes was one of the most deadly fodder out there and it two shotted Indraugnir as well, so there's that granted Indraugnir was in the middle of doing a victory roar so... there's that lol, but still Bloodthirsters are indeed top tier fodder and would absolutely clap trolls as well,

I mean yeah, any named greater daemon stomps a troll. Any regular greater daemon stomps a troll. But not all greater daemons beat 12 trolls, and not all named ones beat a 100. Even less beat 1200. And then there's the fact that we're comparing these 4 greater daemons against regular trolls when they're facing the urfather of trolls.

Also worth noting this; you're arguing that Kairos would beat Ghrand due to magic, and also mention that Kairos couldn't really affect Aenarion, but that already ruins the essence of the argument. Kairos couldn't use magic against Aenarion, and still nearly killed him in melee. Ghrand is a fully physical (and acidic) monster that could fight without restriction against WD.

And yeah BS killing Indraugnir is fully based on the fact that he chopped Indraugnir twice without the dragon even knowing he was there lol. And even then Indraugnir survived. Also worth noting is that Aenarion doesn't say that "this BS is one of the deadliest out there", he's saying "Its a BS, one of the deadliest creatures out there". He doesn't know this specific BS, just that BS in general are the strongest race on average (which we know is true, bar maybe dragons, carnos, dread saurians, and treemen).

Overall these four would at the very least prolly match the troll father and or possibly beat it depending on how hard u really want these greater daemons to job, so again we're looking at equals in this aspect which is why I'm stating stats now matter and what the White dwarf has for stats to compare to Aenarion

They could possibly beat the troll father. Kairos might even be capable of using BFR from the start. But its not a matter of the 4 GDs vs the troll father, in which they would win due to multiple hax. Its about which fight is more impressive. And Aenarion had equipment giving him resistance to three of four of his opponents' magic, yet still needed Indraugnir to kill one of them for him, and both him and his dragon died from the battle.

WD was fighting the first troll, a primordial, on his own, and had to beat him a 100 times despite it getting help from 1200 trolls. And he survived looking slightly tired but otherwise unharmed (note, here he doesn't even have his helmet lol).

Its not a matter of GDs > troll father therefore Aenarion > Troll father, because the GDs have numerous advantages Aenarion does not (and because his win was less than legitimate).

However, Aenarion isn't some regular elf he has the SoK on him and that's what gives him the edge.

But thats again neglecting the fact that WD has an axe of grimnir, an equally powerful weapon.

Remember Aenarion was also spanking chaos as well as shown down below,

While its true that Aenarion is also a melee monster who can stomp fodders, I want to note that WD's feat was specifically 10k in a day with little help on his side, while the full army Aenarion faced numbered in the 100ks, but on his team he had a full army of dragons and high elves, and even then they didn't beat the full daemon force, most were banished. Indraugnir for example was right by him lol.

Also the scan does make me question one thing:

A group of elf soldiers tried to fight their way towards the embattled Phoenix King but died before they could reach him, overwhelmed by the sheer number of their foes. Aenarion leapt from Indraugnir’s back, like a swimmer diving into a sea of monstrous flesh. His blade flickered faster than mortal eyes could follow, smashing through the bodies of his enemies as if they were made from matchwood. A dragon ogre leapt at him, jaws snapping; he caught it in the air one handed, and sent it flying a hundred yards with a flick of his arm. It cartwheeled through the air to splatter against the walls of the shrine.

Is this the dragon ogre strength feat you've been arguing for throughout this debate? Since you claimed it was a dragon ogre shaggoth, but here we see him throwing a regular dragon ogre, so a creature weaker/equal physically than a completely average troll.

As for durability and being a ghost, those generally help, but the Widow Maker makes no difference since it was capable of cutting through a Bloodthirster clean through, cut through Kairos' magic straight through, one shotted Kairos a being of pure magic as stated along with the fact it greatly perm weakened N'kari as well, so on the spiritual aspect this wont matter much. Dwarf natural immunity to magical weaponry is great, but this is kinda like Khorne where it's again also anti magical via u know... cutting Kairos' magic in half Xd

Him being a spirit might not help too much against magical gear like Aenarion's, but add to that the fact that he has three magical items (two from the gods) helping his durability, and that as a dwarf he has higher natural durability than Aenarion, and he should have a strong edge. Also the fact that as a spirit he has zero regard for stamina also still applies.

This is possible especially with the kingdom part, but again unlike Vlad Abhorash has spent most of his history fighting the best constantly and all while Vlad more and less planned and planned to conquer the Empire and spending time with Isabella

Well the relative (?) truth of your argument aside, this still means that the quote upon which the case for Abhorash being the greatest is not regarding combat

Also I want to clarify that Abhorash has not spent his life fighting all of history's best. Infact he's quite known for just having vanished for milennia, only occassionally showing up to fight the likes of the red duke. We haven't seen him try to duel Archaon, Sigmar, Settra, Durthu, Tyrion, Eltharion, Kurt Helborg, Louen, Bohemond, Gotrek, WD, Valkia, or any noteworthy champion besides that. And while I agree with the obvious point of him simply not appearing in much content (which is a wholly valid argument), it still doesn't change the fact that lorewise, he's been hiding out for milennia to the point where noone is quite sure if he still exists.

And while Vlad spent time trying to plan to conquer the Empire and with his wife, he's also been studying the nine books of nagash, fighting battles, and been in different courts across the world such as kislev, where the nobility prides itself on their combative ability and constant war with chaos. Vlad has been improving himself in all aspects of life throughout his life.

In the magical aspect I never claimbed Abhorash would win, I said he'd prolly close the gab before Vlad would be able to caste anything was my point.

This requires three things:

1. The skillgap is such that Abhorash can legit disarm and kill Vlad within less than a second due to vampiric speed and the fact that Vlad is the quickest vamp we know of

2. They start so close Abhorash can instantly strike him

3. Abhorash is countless times quicker than Vlad, has to be of Sigvald vs average human proportions.

Since fact is that Vlad has repeatedly casted magic while dueling and in combat, and that in ET we have consistently seen him turn shapeless/blitz his way through battlefields even against flesh hounds and champions of chaos. Even Mannfred (who himself can blitz Blood Knight Masters) was easily outpaced by Vlad.

As for Walach he didn't technically even one shot him, just used his dragon to win. If Vlad was confident in his actual bladed abilities he would of simply sent the dragon away or dismembered

I mean this argument is faulty for an obvious reason. Walach brought the dragon in the first place. If he was confident in his abilities, why did he try to use a dragon to win? Vlad was trying to defeat chaos, and for him Walach was a minor nuisance in comparison to the fact that they had just lost a battle, why would he bother entering a duel when he could just take the dragon Walach brought and have it eat him?

Vlad in turn over powered his dragon and used said dragon to one shot Walach

So the dragon that Vlad overpowered in a second can oneshot Walach ;)

Overall I agree that Vlad is again better at magic than Abhorash which is why I stated location and intention matters greatly here. If Aborash starts within a reasonable distance there's no reason for him not to be able to defeat Vlad, but if Vlad can whip out his powers there's no reason why he shouldn't be able to hinder Abhorash or out right destroy him in that aspect ( I'm not sure since Abhorash lacks feats in general )

The issue here remains that Vlad can fly or teleport with a multitude of his spells. And nothing prevents him from doing so. And since he can do that he can distance himself how far or wherever he likes and spam spells on Abhorash. If it was swords only I would agree that Abhorash wins, but this is about their overall abilities, in which Abhorash has no wincon besides hoping that Vlad stands afk.

As for the dragon, this wasn't a regular single dragon and Zacharius being a very higher tier mage for the vampires chose to drain one while it slept rather than fight it like Abhorash,

Zarachias was asleep in the cave when the dragon flew in without noticing and went to sleep. Zarachias woke up and found a source of power right beside him and chose to just kill it. The question here is; Zaracharias doesn't care about honour or strength, why would he intentionally wake up a dragon just to fight it when he could just drain it while it slept. It doesn't indicate an inability to do so, just doesn't make sense characterwise for a wise and clever mage to intentionally pick a fight when he doesn't have to.

Also worth noting that Zarachias was pre-prime (at the time he was sub Melkhior), and was wounded and weakened since he was just beaten by Melkhior the day before.

creating at least 1 solid order who's knights are very elite ( Blood Dragons )

Technicaly a majority of the blood dragon order was created by Walach, but Abhorash is the technical founder yeah. Or at least its grandfather of sorts.

its likely Abhorash overall became stronger of the two.

Physically stronger? Quite likely. But Abhorash simply training his swordsskills can't compare to the growth of Vlad reading all 9 books of nagash (massive increase to power and knowledge) and gathering skills of all sorts from all countries in the world.

Vlad took time to prep, conformed a province, etc, these are years wasted while Abhorash never technically "stopped" and that was the point.

Again while Vlad did do politics, he also was creating new vampires, gathering power and knowledge, and even fought of enemies trying to threaten sylvania.

Meanwhile Abhorash has spent most of his time being vanished

It's like saying Karl Franz is a skilled fighter and has also lead wars as well, but does that make him equal to his champion, no.

Franz however doesn't fight as much on the forefront as Vlad, and when he does he's usually on deathclaw and has two of the greatest imperial champions by him

Cathay ftw btw

Based!

Stronger prolly, but faster I'm not sure, simply because again Vlad does admit Walach is the more accomplished fighter,

Vlad admits Walach is a better warrior and directly afterwards attributes that to greater swordsmanship. He doesn't say or imply that Walach is faster or stronger, and while it does imply that Walach would make up for it in skill, Vlad also says that swordsmanship doesn't matter much compared to other vampire skill, proceeding to prove it by killing Walach instantly.

You suggesting Vlad can't lift part of a dragon??? MHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH XD

Maybe he could if there wasn't a guy with a sword on it ;)

I mean even if they both had horses the statement still stands. Granted yes Walach was already on a dragon, but he decided to give a speech about how awesome his order was and how the carsteins sucked all while vlad easily cucked him

Walach being a better swordsman still stands yes, but that doesn't change the fact that Walach both put Vlad in a situation where Vlad had to be rid of a dragon before dealing with Walach anyways, and where Vlad could just finish the fight instantly by having the dragon eat him. Again the question is; why would Vlad actively seek to prolong the fight by not using the monster Walach brought in the first place? Like Vlad said about Abhorash, only he cares about honour. Vlad is practical.

I wouldn't be so sure, if vlad's already pressed horribly in melee combat by a person equal or better than him hes not going to have time to caste anything really. Malekith and the rest generally are dealing with more than simply "one person" casting magic and or are mages themselves as well where both parties are casting spells. Its more akin to Valkia vs Malekith, but unlike Valkia vlad and Abhorash would be on foot not flying around and playing cat and mouse

Malekith did cast a spell against Valkia, thats how he survived the situation. And against his vast superior in SoK Tyrion he also casted spells mid-combat. And against Imrik he also casted spells after he was outskilled. Allarielle casted spells while in melee against Hellebron, despite having the skills in melee of a bretonnian peasant. Ol Black Toof casted spells against Eltharion in melee despite not even having melee weapons. Mannfred used spells while being soundly beaten by Eltharion in melee. Arkhan incinerated Eltharion while Eltharion was currently ripping him in half. Thorek Ironbrow incinerated dozens of vampires while they attacked him from all fronts. Etc. etc.

When a caster is being overpowered in melee, thats usually exactly when they start pulling out spells. The more Abhorash presses him the more likely vlad is to simply end it with magic.

Agreed, which is why I state magic is what will kill Abhorash nothing short of it to. I did forget Vlad does do clouds, bats wouldn't be as big of an issue since Abhorash could keep up unless Vlad starts blasting from the skies ( hence the I dont remember all his feats. ) I got his vampire wars book on my shelf and I could certainly crack it open, but its along a big ass book and would rather not spend a few days to a week reading it again Xd

Well I mean, why wouldn't Vlad attack Abhorash from above when he can? (Also not quite as confident Abhorash could keep up with Vlad if he shapeshifts alot).

True, but I'd have to read more on manny boi again cause overall hes had some impressive feats other than breaking blades, but hes also the second strongest in the family to so there's that.

And the strongest of the family issssss...? ;)

As for agile and faster I dont think vlad is in either case as pre vampire Abhorash already deflected at least a few dozen arrows to hundreds with nothing but his twin swords, so even human wise he was prolly better than vlad and with his vampire stats?

I mean reacting to arrows is standard for vampires, casually blitzing other vampires isn't xD

Agreed on lore, and why i say it matters is because Neferata knew Vlad very well and knew Abhorash around the same. Hence why I stated that.

Neferata knew Vlad before he went on his adventures to all of mankind and got a massive powerup from the books of nagash. Whereas Abhorash is basically the same just trying to get even better at swordsmanship.

However for Nagash choosing he's also reached out to others like Zach and when they said no he blasted them.

Whats important to note is:

1. Nagash also chose Vlad specifically as head leader of all vampires when they served him against Alcadizzar.

2. During ET Nagash chose to ressurect Vlad specifically (its specifically noted how Vlad was the only mortarch which Nagash chose to ressurect, the rest were all chosen amongst live ones)

3. Nagash had two campaigns in mind. One to fight chaos and one to fight Nehekhara. And Nagash ressurected Vlad specifically to lead the former, which wouldn't have changed with Zach

Do we know if Nagash reached out to Abhorash ( I can't remember )

He didn't because Abhorash was too weak, sub Mannfred, wholly canon trust me

On a real note he did not. Abhorash wasn't even mentioned, possibly because Nagash had no way to make sure he was loyal (Vlad and Nameless were blackmailed, Neferata and Mannfred afraid, Both Harkons just saw an opportunity, Krell, Arkhan and Dieter were loyal).

Did Abhorash get blitzed by a human and fell to his death while the human hung on top of him and they both fell on a wooden stake? XD

No, but at least he didn't die a virgin ;)

@cheth: I'll respond to this post later on no idea because of a few serious things have came up, so I wont have time for a bit

Don't worry mate, take all the time in the world, hope it works out for you

@cheth: dont think i forgot about this either!

Don't worry I didn't xD. Oh btw while I have you, wanted to let you know that:

That is impressive no doubt, but Snorri (who has worse gear than White Dwarf) already almost oneshotted a great unclean one himself,

I'm not sure this is actually true anymore. The only time he faced a GUO in the novels he had a tough fight with it (though he was winning until it tricked him), so either I'm remembering a WD article in which he did oneshot one or I misremembered the novel fight

Really don't care for it. Warhammer was always a Starship Trooper ripoff.

This really didn't convince me.

@azraelotaku: I love Starship Troopers, but I'm curious how the fantasy setting Warhammer Fantasy Battle is ripping off a sci-fi setting

^

This.

@cheth said:

Oof I forgot about our debate on this lololololol

Anyway your order sucks Kroq-gar should be number 1, Durthu number 2, etc fix ur order and get it right or dont post at all Xd lolololololol

Convince you of what? There's nothing going on here for Warhammer, its literally warhammer vs warhammer lol????

Also Warhammer was never a starship trooper ripoff, if anything it was more based off of Dune, Star Wars, and various elements of human history ramped up by "futuristic what if's" and then mashed together into a sci fi setting oh and as Cheth pointed out, this is warhammer fantasy not 40k, and warhammer fantasy certainly isnt based off of a sci fi setting like starship troopers lol and if you're gonna to at least talk smack message this thread

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/all-things-warhammer-40k-683070/

Not this one lololololol

I think we have like 4 debates you've technically yet to reply to lmfao

Yeah he only went for this thread because he wanted to "punish" me for voting against him

Jokes on him since he brought attention back to one of my blogs ;)

Warhammer is a ripoff of Starship Troopers. Warhammer is about playing with cheap plastic toys.

Warhammer is cancer.