Valtorr Vs. Marduk Kurios/Lucifer

Valtorr Vs. Marduk Kurios/Lucifer:

The Rules:

• Morals Off/Bloodlust.
• Neutral Dimension.
  
• Random Encounter.
• Standard Power-Levels.
• Win by any means.

LOCATION:

Shouldn't Principalities be higher than conventional hell lords?

@zetsu-san: Shouldn't Principalities be higher than conventional hell lords?

They should, but Marvel has been treating Lucifer/Marduk as above the conventional Hell-Lords lately. He was even called to be God's greatest warrior recently and to balance the cosmic order in Blade Vol.5#3:

I'd say Lucifer this time despite his inconsistencies

Well Marduk has more tangible showings but I’d still place Valtorr closer to someone like Dormammu, and if Marduk is being compared to Satannish who Dormammu eclipses in power, then I’d imagine Valtorr wins. Also, idk if there’s any feat from Marduk to suggest he’s a threat to many multiple timelines like Valtorr is.

@zetsu-san: Changed the location to Hell/Hades. Besides, I think Marduk/Lucifer was always above conventional Hell-Lords. He was portrayed as the strongest aspect of Satan and even seems to be the patron of the Grimorium Verum, which's a book as nearly as powerful as Chthon's own Darkhold(Hellstrom: Prince of Lies#3):

I would say Valtoor.

@wastelandman said:

Yea, but I think Marduk is usually portrayed as above the likes of Satannish, Mephisto, Thog and others. As I said to Zets, Marduk seemed to be the strongest aspect of Satan. In fact, Marvel itself is treating him as Satan, alongside TOBA.

Depending on the storyline, Marduk could even be around the same power as the Elder Gods as well.

@andromeda1001:

I see. But if he’s the strongest candidate Satan does that mean he scales beyond even someone like TOBA?

That wouldn't make sense, though. His book isn't even as powerful as Chthon's, no?

@wastelandman: As the strongest aspect between the ordinary Hell-Lords like Mephisto or Satannish. Regarding TOBA, it's hard to say. Ewing seems to clearly want to portray TOBA as the closest being to the title and the opposite of TOAA, but like, other writers have explicitly portrayed Marduk/Lucifer as the ultimate embodiment of evil. One of the latest previews from BloodHunt calls him Satan again, for example.

The guidebook Marvel - Map by Map does rank TOBA's Below Place as the bottom of all hells, though:

@bigbaby said:

There's that as well, yea.

@andromeda1001 said:

@wastelandman: As the strongest aspect between the ordinary Hell-Lords like Mephisto or Satannish. Regarding TOBA, it's hard to say. Ewing seems to clearly want to portray TOBA as the closest being to the title and the opposite of TOAA, but like, other writers have explicitly portrayed Marduk/Lucifer as the ultimate embodiment of evil. One of the latest previews from BloodHunt calls him Satan again, for example.

The guidebook Marvel - Map by Map does rank TOBA's Below Place as the bottom of all hells, though:

Ewing actually confirmed on Twitter that TOBA is 2nd to TOAA when angry.

@bigbaby said:

I believe I saw the tweet once, yea.

@andromeda1001:

Seems like TOBA is meant to be stronger then.

Btw, you mentioned Marduk being comparable to an Elder God. Unless I’m mistaken, I recall All-Father Thor temporarily held his own and BFR’d Toranos who’s an elder god. Scarlet Witch is considered Immortal Thor’s equal yet she presumably died alongside every other mystic, some comparable to Wanda herself, so would you consider this evidence Valtorr scales above Marduk?

@wastelandman said:

Yea.

Probably, yes. I'm trying to not argue too much in my own thread.

@wastelandman: Also, Valtorr supposedly being weaker than Dormammu isn't a bad thing for him. Just like Ethan confirmed that Dormammu is more powerful than Valtorr, Duggan also sort of confirmed that Dormammu is stronger than Marduk/Lucifer:

@andromeda1001:

That’s a very good point, and this is why it’s good to have these writer confirmations like this.

Also, that’s fair, I wouldn’t want to try to have you debate in your own thread. I just really wnated to hear your perspective with your knowledge on the subject.

@wastelandman said:

Yea, I agree.

It's okay, friend. No problem.

@wastelandman: @bigbaby: I was re-reading my guidebooks for my last debate, and was reminded of this interesting passage:

The Vishanti constantly battle against rivals with a similar mystic rank, which means beings around a similar level of power. And who has been shown to fight them in DSSS#49?

Valtorr himself! His power shouldn't be that much inferior to the Vishanti then.

@andromeda1001: That's actually pretty concrete scaling.

@bigbaby: Yea, I was also re-reading some old comics and found that Ethan's statement about how Valtorr compares to Dormammu isn't a low-showing for the former. Apparently, Dormammu has also fought against the Trinity of Ashes and Slorioth off-panel in DSSS: Annual#4:

Both beings are around Vishanti's level, as well.

@andromeda1001: Dormmamu also recently fought Vishanti in the Strange Academy Finals. I think based on that too, Valtorr should be around that level indeed. I also remembered this Andi:

Corrina, who had Valtorr's remaining powers, feared Agatha unleashing a New Darkhold because it was "an ancient magic that could kill them all", so she sent her minions to stop Agatha, sensing it from Valtorr's original dimension. That should scale Chthon above Valtorr, right?

@andromeda1001 said:

@wastelandman: @bigbaby: I was re-reading my guidebooks for my last debate, and was reminded of this interesting passage:

The Vishanti constantly battle against rivals with a similar mystic rank, which means beings around a similar level of power. And who has been shown to fight them in DSSS#49?

Valtorr himself! His power shouldn't be that much inferior to the Vishanti then.

Tbf, the story and scans itself already frame Valtorr adn the rest of the principalities as rivals to them.

@bigbaby: Corrina, who had Valtorr's remaining powers, feared Agatha unleashing a New Darkhold because it was "an ancient magic that could kill them all", so she sent her minions to stop Agatha, sensing it from Valtorr's original dimension. That should scale Chthon above Valtorr, right?

The Darkhold is just a fraction of Chthon's power, right? If that's the case, then probably, yes.

@andromeda1001: Yeah, it's usually referred to as fraction or portion.

👀