CAV - Ikki (estrelladeleon) vs Sephiroth (thenamelessone)

ℂ𝕙𝕒𝕝𝕝𝕖𝕟𝕘𝕖-𝔸-𝕍𝕚𝕟𝕖𝕣 𝕡𝕣𝕖𝕤𝕖𝕟𝕥𝕤: 𝕀𝕜𝕜𝕚 (𝔼𝕤𝕥𝕣𝕖𝕝𝕝𝕒𝔻𝕖𝕃𝕖𝕠𝕟) 𝕧𝕤 𝕊𝕖𝕡𝕙𝕚𝕣𝕠𝕥𝕙 (𝕥𝕙𝕖𝕟𝕒𝕞𝕖𝕝𝕖𝕤𝕤𝕠𝕟𝕖

🅖🅔🅝🅔🅡🅐🅛 🅡🅤🅛🅔🅢

• Saint Seiya Ikki, all feats allowed
• Final Fantasy Rebirth Sephiroth
• They are both in character but extremely determined to win, they've a minute before the fight to think of their strat.
• they both have general gear and abilities
• they both have general knowledge on each other.
• the battle takes place on an indestructable planet.
• No outside interference at all.
• Win condition is the death/eradication of the other/BFR/Incapitation of any kind.

🅥🅞🅣🅘🅝🅖 🅡🅤🅛🅔🅢

• This is a CAV so don't comment on who you think wins the fight or anything like that
• At the end of the debate, vote for who you think made the better arguments, not which character you think wins
• Give reasons for why you think they debated better
• If you want to be tagged when the debate is over, just say "Tag for votes" (or T4V).
• Give a detailed reasoning for your vote.
• any show of conclusive bias toward a debater or a character would eliminate your vote.
• any show of conclusive bias before the votings would immidiately eliminate you from the voting.
• please stay humble/respectful to all the debaters during voting , even the ones you disagree with.
• Do not Derail this CAV with your own debates

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𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓟𝓱𝓸𝓮𝓷𝓲𝔁...

To many it is known who Ikki is, to many he is just a rando often mentioned out of nowhere in conversations, to many he is the GOAT...well, in this instance, I'll be presenting why he is an actual character worth of note.

The legendary Phoenix! The immortal bird, that's the source of Hope of many, symbolising eternal reincarnation and rebirth, for a bright future to save those that hold their dreams close to their hearts...to be realized, for that is a brave of tomorrow, that rises up from his ashes, to come back as stronger.

I don't believe further introductions or details are needed, besides the fact that Ikki is the brother of Shun, and half brother of the other 3 legendary bronze saints, Seiya, Hyoga and Shiryu, he has always been a lone wolf that deeply does care for his friends, his family. A warrior of Athena does not give up, even when everything seems but lost..

𝓡𝓮𝓫𝓲𝓻𝓽𝓱..

In the face of the Sky God, whose plan is to assimilate the infinite worlds, through Pontos, the Black Sea and source of all life, bringing forth eternal destruction among dimensions and following Gaia's will... a filicker of Hope remains.

The Phoenix, symbol of eternal reincarnation, still bright in the pitch black starless sky:

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First and foremost, it is to note, that the constellations are the very proof of a Saint's existence, a side of the same coin. Yet, the power of the Black Sea is such, everything sinks into it, body, mind, soul and Cosmo. The Karmic Rain of Fire, extinguishing a Saint in his totality of being.

And the constellations, the very embodiment of the hope that once upon a time, overflowed from the Pandora Box together with the 108 evils of humanity, aren't spared from such fate. Cloths, being one and the same with the Constellations, are thus destined to fall into despair. And in this, the ultimate Hope, the cloth of Pegasus, is what remains, the source of all the Miracles in the world, and the last Hope of the Pandora Box.

Miracles.

Something produced by a specific energy called...

Cosmo: The power of the "big bang".

Cosmo(an invisible energy), the most important, fundamental element in the Saint Seiya world. Everything that exists in the universe, was originally created by the big bang. All the stars, nebulaes, galaxies, are composed of atoms, something any Cosmo user, learn to destroy while just Saints in training. And by that, I mean, anyone. They all target the very atomic structure of an object to destroy it, negating its durability altogether. Some advanced uses of Cosmo, even lets you achieve destruction on a quantum level, on both physical and spiritual plane, with the mildest of Cosmo users being capable of destroying on a level beyond even quarks. The Cloths themselves, are equipped with mini-black holes, that warp space itself, yet, these Cloths' durability is multiple times bypassed. The weakest Cloth, has multiple times over, the equivalent of 20 nukes, being detonated all at once on the surface of an asteroid with 10 kilometers of lenght, with the potency of the explosion compressing the whole body. Thus it's a no brainer that this level of atomic destruction, goes well beyond the normal, and is actually layered in nature, due to the multiple showings of resistances to such being bypassed.

Proficient Cosmo users, are capable of producing extreme levels of heat, reaching millions of degrees, from there, the "burn my Cosmo", is actually literal in the very sense.

Or even, transcend the very laws of physics:

The capacity to destroy souls, comes as a feeble, any Cosmo user can pretty much affect someone on a spiritual plane as well, someone like Cancer Deathmask, a low tier Gold Saint, can effectively destroy near 20 billion souls in one single shot. And of course, how can we forget the typical, "an ability never works twice on a saint", which well, tells you everything. After understanding how such an ability, that previously affected them, works, they'll be immune to it, becoming resistant.

But besides that, we have one of the most unique power systems you might find around, always through the applications of Cosmo, and...

The Senses. Besides the five senses, known to everyone, it exists a sixth sense, the one of precognition and intuition, what lets you perceive everything around yourself, your very mind.

But besides that, the source of Cosmo itself, is...the 7th sense, Cosmo itself, what lets a Saint achieve Miracles, by turning impossibilities in possibilities, it being present in anyone's soul, just deep down, locked.

In short, the highest possible level of Cosmo, a mortal can achieve. To give you an example, Virgo Shaka deprived Ikki Phoenix, of his 6 senses:

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Yet, due to his 7th sense, Cosmo, he was still able to fight and move, proving how this goes beyond the mere mind and body's functions, but its fundamental functions are on a deep, spiritual level. And keep in mind, anyone with 6th sense, can use Cosmo already.

The infinite human potential, is what lets them achieve Miracles. To against fate, the set destiny, and manifesting an impossible reality, being the "hero" of the world.

And that's impressive, when the gods quite literally oppose humans by manipulating fate(cough Karma a concept) itself, utterly making it an impossible struggle to go against them, without failing miserably.

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And this...this is almost poetic. Once again, always because of Miracles, the infinite human potential, their infinite possibilities.

...And originally, you may say that Cosmo could be seen in this simplistic way. You wouldn't be wrong, but it's not exactly an explanation that makes the conception behind "Cosmo", justice. Besides the ability to achieve immunity to any sort of power seen/hit by once, to destroy sub atomic particles, and yada yada ya, there is that one important side of things that deserve a different outlook of things.

Take for example, the soul of Pegasus, is the ultimate source of Miracles...how can it then, be a byproduct of Cosmo, if not because Cosmo in itself is deeper than the very soul? The Saint of Libra, explains how the Cosmo, the will itself, generates the soul. Further proven by the Gladiator Paracelsus, who claims how the "Archeus" that binds the soul with the body, and maintains their very connection, is Cosmo.

Cosmo, holds even one's information of being! The very memory of Mu's existence would have vanished from everyone's mind, if not for a phantom generated by Cosmo.

So what is Cosmo? It is indeed, the infinite willpower that generates the soul, the soul itself, being a container for "Hope", in Seiya's case, the proud soul of Pegasus...

But...is it really the last hope? No, for Pegasus' soul, has an effect to the world around him. The "idea" of a god being unbeatable, even though a destiny pre established across the whole multiverse, becomes inapplicable, the inviolable karmic fate, that exists in every time, universe or world, is no longer shackling the existence of a Saint, thanks to the power of Miracles.

For the power of Miracles is what manifests a new future from nothing. The human, is free to choose between the infinite possibilities, and manifest them, through his own willpower, breaking the chains of Karma.

Fate? Saints don't care. The endless possibilities within the human, can be materialized through their infinite potential. And through what, is the human willpower showcased?

Through the senses! Besides the first five and the sixth sense of intuition, the seventh sense, the essence of Cosmo, is what brings the infinite human potential to its peak, letting them manifest their own futures amidst the infinite possibility of choice. The power to rewrite the future, break fate, is achieved with the ultimate Cosmo.

And that's not all, as further senses exist. For example, the repository of Karma itself throughout which Samsara itself passes, the 8th sense:

And the source of one's Karma, which binds the existence. As always, awakened through human willpower, a Miracle . A change in the mechanics of thoughts, allows the mind and soul to transcend time or space, with the soul itself being disconnected from the karmic cycle of reincarnation. This goes to say, that in fact, willpower does not care of dimensions.

From a higher plane, all dimensions can be perceived. This, significantly affects Ikki, for:

•He possesses the forementioned Phoenix immortality, and even if "hope", the constellation he represents, is erased, he will just come back as the Phoenix embodies rebirth, and lacks a concept of death;

•His very existence is a Miracle, and affected by Seiya, he, by proxy, will passively change the future and defy Karma, throughout his 7th sense being free to pick amidst infinite future own possibilities and change the future;

•His willpower will always generate his soul and his Cosmo which creates it, and thus he will never actually die as long as a willpower so strong it can break the very boundaries of space-time, exists.

•Through the 8th sense, he can exist as a literal soul from beyond the cycle of reincarnation, across the whole universe...but let's get into what that actually means.

𝓢𝓪𝓶𝓼𝓪𝓻𝓪.

Eternal recurrence. Infinity, the perpetual reincarnation of the soul, is estabilished through the concepts of A-Un, Agyo being the sound that represents the birth of the universe, Ungyo being the sound that represents the death of the universe. When these two mix, Yin and Yang, light and darkness, beginning and the end, they clash, and Samsara itself is generated.

An endless cycle of universes being created and dying, which goes on for eternity, as the Ouroboros, which represents death and rebirth, is the symbol of "infinity", the endless reincarnation.

This is a phenomena that happens to govern the whole universe conceptually, physically, and for the lives that exist within, spiritually as well.

The repository of Karma, in itself, goes beyond the essence of Cosmo, which means it's naturally more complex and intrinsic, thus, considering it binds one's existence, even Cosmo of one's soul, would be included.

But the universe in itself, isn't just one simple structure. Multiple, connected parallel worlds, exist within a single universe, but with different futures. To the point, it is confirmed an "infinite multi dimensional" universe, housing an infinity of parallel worlds...all of that, in a single, actual, universe.

An infinite amount of presents and an infinite amount of dimensions, thus exist within a universe, created by the big bang(which created a "macrocosm"). And in context, a different dimension obviously corresponds to a different world/timeline( always contained in the macrocosm and shown as "nebulas"). The worlds may have different time flows, and several of these types of "universes" do exist, even forming multiverses!

All in all, Samsara, would govern over this "universe", if not the various other "universes" that compose the several "multiverses" as well, considering that transcendance of space-time is what is required to break free from its shackles.

Yet, Saints consistently defy the Karma that traps them, with the power of Miracles. Which means their powers of future re-creation, would encompass such existence on such a scale...or perhaps even beyond?

...𝓣𝓱𝓮𝓻𝓮 𝓮𝔁𝓲𝓼𝓽𝓼 𝓪 𝓿𝓸𝓲𝓭.

Far beyond the cycle of reincarnation, a void which encompasses everything and is brought forth by the awakening of the 9th sense and the destruction of the previous 8, this is a void which exists upon the utter destruction of every principle, though, responsibility that make up the human willpower, which is what shapes the very "universe", with "love" and "harmony"

In short, it is the void that predates creation and overexceeds it, unreachable even for the 8th sense. For Dunamis, the power of chaos, is what forms all the components of the universe, and expands it to infinity, and is the maximum power of the 9th sense, elevated to its best, to bring forth the end of all things.

The 9th sense is so powerful,

it exceeds any level of Cosmo Seiya has ever felt, and it sees the every conception of Cosmo beforehand, as "limited", yet infinity.

Thus:

•A non dualistic void, beyond beginning and end, unbound by reincarnation (as shown with Hyperion the very concept of "Ouroboros", being assimilated into his arm through his Dunamis);

•It goes well beyond the conception of human willpower, as it's impossible no matter what, for human will to reach a god;

•Beyond higher dimensions.

Yet..

Ikki doesn't give a shit. The Primordial Gods, root of all existence, the Black Sea which is what expands the universe to infinity and embodies its literal expansion, gets pierced through by the power of Ikki's Cosmo, which collapsed infinitely alongside his very soul, manages to harm even "god".

This is why Ikki benefits from the power of "Hope", which brings forth a Miracle! A world in which the human being can defy god with Miracles, and where Ikki is the embodiement of such Hope through the Lion's fangs and eternal rebirth of the Phoenix. To praise is Ikki's reactive evolution, an example being him utilizing the "micro-dust" of time, to create an armor from a projection of the future, in a universe in which past, present and future are one.

I would bring in more examples, but what I am saying is, what works once on Ikki, doesn't work anymore on Ikki, and he will just adapt, like Virgo Shaka adapted to a dimension that quite literally transcends the multiverse and sees its universes and components as tiny glimmers.

From that, we get to his mind screwing shenanigans, which quite literally can destroy the soul and mind of fellow Saints(keep note human have infinite willpower), to utilizing Hellfire and attacking the mind of 8th sense users to the point they cannot understand if those flames are real or an illusion, burning their mind and Cosmo, restraining Aiolia who, quite literally, can lift something with greater weight than the whole infinite universe(Shura did it with one arm while wounded, Aldebaran did it casually), or even mind screwing the likes of Hades, and.. well, gods are beyond the very dimension of existence humans exist on, in every possible way.

Disclaimer: R>F is real.

And I mean it, literally, god sees past, present and future, the records of mythology, in books. Seiya and co., even resisted being erased from the "chronicles", and Saints fight gods on a regular basis.

"The story that was spun so far", is a good statement for consistency, in regards to gods seeing the world as nothing more than a story with a plot and mythologies being written.

Also humorous how gods may see the world as nothing more than a fleeting dream.

Which means, Ikki can comfortably attack the mind of 8th or 9th sense users, and he can use it offensively, considering he crushed the mind of a god soldier:

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And he does so by attacking the maliciousness and thoughts, nature within someone, so it's not something you can resist conventionally + on top of the various planes of existence his telepathy would target.

With all this and that said...

𝓣𝓱𝓮 𝓟𝓱𝓸𝓮𝓷𝓲𝔁 𝓸𝓯 𝓽𝓸𝓶𝓸𝓻𝓻𝓸𝔀..

...is plenty strong. Gold Saints he'd oneshot, can destroy and reshape the "universe", into something completely different, sixth sense users are capable of triggering attacks on the level of the Big Bang, and that's before awakening the 7th sense, aka the essence of Cosmo, thus superior by default...and this is for baseline seventh sense.

Fighting gods who are the cause of the expansion of the infinite multi dimensional universe(multiverse), is basically Tuesday for Ikki, even using lightning so powerful it breaches through higher dimensional spaces, amping him to an infinitely higher degree than normal or through literal dimensions using freaking photons, into different timelines. (Note, that Photon Burst has various steps, in which photons are inserted within an opponent's body to then be detonated from the inside In Ikki's case, on space-time level. See: Koios' explanation)

He'd be at least, at the very worst, as fast as Shura, who surpassed the speed of the universe's initial expansion. Which we know, is a phenomena manifested by the Sea God Pontos, making him unreasonably fast and not even superluminal speed can begin to define how quick he is combat speed wise. His attacks reach different timelines, higher dimensions and are faster than the Big Bang...need I say more?

But what is to note, in Ikki's arsenal, due to recent chapters in Saint Seiya, Episode G Requiem is...the power of lightning.

Gods cannot die. Eris will forever return as long as chaos and discord exist, Chronos is the literal concept of time, Moros literally define death itself, and so on. Gods do not die when even their body and souls are destroyed and can still possess hosts and keep fighting, all that through pre established karmic bonds:

They have an infinite lifespan, they can possess someone's soul, and they don't know a concept of death.Moreover, the fear of man, keep god into existence even then. They can even reincarnate.

But the power of lightning, is capable of introducing true death upon gods, stripping them of their divinity and rendering them beings with a finite life span, even negating the effects of memory manipulation imposed upon the Titans(note: it's impressive to mind wash a god).

This, a power Ikki possesses, due to being a Leo Saint...

Initial conclusions for this debacle:

Besides being infinite multiversal at the worst, facing entities that spread chaos across an universe that is at worst composed of infinite worlds, timelines, dimensions, etc.,

Ikki is a monster of evolution, adaptability and tenacity.

•The power of Miracles shape, quite literally, reality itself and create new futures even when all hope seems to be lost...for hope, is actually Ikki's power here. New futures generated without a limitation:

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Is really, the most fundamental narrative element of the Saint Seiya franchise. The power of Miracles can let the user soul transcend space and time, for that is the source of Cosmo, the unlimited force of will, generative force of human destiny! The plot itself cannot go against this man, as he creates his own story.

•Mental attacks across several planes of existence in different dimensions, which affect minds beyond even the universe or the multiverse, making proficent 8th sense users feel like inadequate clowns for not knowing what is reality and illusion. The infinite willpower of man, is quite literally nothing in front of the Hoo Genmaken or the Judgment of Hellfire;

•Negation of immortality on body, spiritual, conceptual, information/memory level, destroying the divinity of gods and rendering them mere mortals like everyone else, condemning them to a perpetual and eternal death into Tartarus, even beyond the curse of the god of the Underworld, as Hades cannot impose death on gods.

I think and know Sephiroth might be Ikki's greatest challenge yet, but the Saint of Hope won't give up, and may manifest a future of victory, and bring defeat upon his adversary...only time will tell, for I expect only the best from my friend!

Best of luck.

Post is up

@thenamelessone:

Interesting

Great post! Can't wait for Seph

Very good post, I await Thenamelessone's response.

Really great post from Estrella as expected. Never fails to amaze me. Now lets see what Thenamelessone will put on the table.

Great Post as usual 👌

TAEP

This was a pretty fun read, it’s a really strong opening post.